record is as unimpeachable as their pitch-perfect performances. Since their
first concerts in 1978, they have traveled around the globe, performing everywhere from Huntsville to
Tokyo, with recent stops at Vienna's Musikverein and Amsterdam's
Concertgebouw. Theyíve released 29 recordings, including a DVD of their
popular PBS Christmas special, earned four Grammy awards, and even made it
onto the cover of Gramophone, the most widely circulated English language
classical music magazine.
In the fall of 2005,
shortly before Chanticleer was set to begin its annual Christmas tour, I
spoke by phone with Assistant Music Director Matt Oldman and veteran bass
Eric Alatorre. The men were buoyed by the news that their usual two
performances at New Yorkís Metropolitan Museum of Art, which sell out months
in advance, had just been increased to four in hopes of accommodating
everyone who wished to attend.
Below is an edited transcript of our
Eric Alatorre: This is my 16th season as bass with
Chanticleer. Music Director Joe Jennings is our only member who has been
Matt Oldman: I sing tenor, and this is
my 7th season.
Jason Victor Serinus: I met Louis
before he even started Chanticleer, when he auditioned as a countertenor
with the Port Costa Players.
The composition and balance of the group have
changed a lot over the years. Iíve gone back to recordings done 10 or 15
years ago, and there were more lower voices, less higher voices. How has the
sound changed as a result, and what motivated you to make the change?
Eric: Itís kind of a tricky thing. If
you look at it on paper, it may seem as though there were more low voices in
the ensemble. It might have been skewed a little more toward the low end.
But actually there were people singing parts higher than what they called
themselves. Tenors were singing alto, altos were singing soprano, etc. So
there has been a certain consistency that maintained itself over the years.
Most of the consistency has to do with Joe. He
has been the common thread throughout 28 years of the Ensemble. He became
our Music Director in 1983, and reshaped the sound. Even with the personnel
changes and the re-voicing that happens occasionally, thereís been a
consistency to the sound.
Matt: Eric makes a good point. In my
first year, there were two of us who called ourselves tenors who were
singing alto. I donít think the voicing has changed that much. But people
are much more comfortable calling themselves countertenors nowadays. There
are more around. Tenors who might sing very high in the alto now call
themselves countertenors. So while on paper it may look as though the
balance has changed, in reality it hasnít changed that much.
Eric: I remember we once did a little
experiment. We used to list ourselves individually and what voice types we
were. Then we started listing ourselves by section.
When it was individual voice parts, reviews of
our concerts and recordings often said how unbalanced we were because there
were six countertenors vs. three tenors and three basses. The reviewers
werenít really aware of how the countertenors actually split up. Once we
listed our members by section, all of a sudden the reviews no longer
mentioned that we were unbalanced. It was a bit curious, especially since
nothing had actually changed with the ensemble.
JVS: We are infallible, you know.
Eric: [All laughing] We like to think
so, but we know better.
JVS: Do you have a way of putting into words the sound youíd
optimally like to achieve?
Matt: Thatís difficult. We want to
achieve an appropriate and authentic sound. Itís not one sound weíre after,
because we sing way too much repertoire and too diverse a repertoire to ever
achieve one sound in particular. Sometimes we donít even want a blended
sound; we may want one voice or section to predominate.
The sound weíre going for is the sound that
best suits the piece of music. We donít want to have one sound and then try
to fit the music to it. We want to have the music first, and then sing in a
manner thatís appropriate for the music.
JVS: How long do you end up rehearsing
before a concert?
Eric: It can really vary. It depends
upon how long there is between concerts. The tour program weíre doing now,
Earthsongs, weíve had a somewhat luxurious amount of time to bring in
new singers, really live with the music for awhile, and let it mature in an
organic manner. There have been other times when weíre running around a lot
and we literally have one week to whip up a program before we go onstage.
It depends on the type of music and the amount
of time. Once we learn a program, it continues to evolve and develop. Itís
not like you put in X amount of time and itís done. Pieces really do have a
life themselves and dictate over time how much time is necessary. This makes
it a bit more organic and alive, which makes it definitely exciting for the
audience, and hopefully something we also enjoy.
Matt: There are two aspects of
rehearsing. One is to learn the music; the other is ensemble building. With
each incarnation of Chanticleer, you have to have a big push in the
beginning; then it constantly evolves of course. Once the ensemble sound is
achieved, itís much easier to get pieces up and running, because youíve
learned to blend with your neighbor and across the sections. We donít have
to reinvent the wheel every time.
JVS: How many new singers do you have
JVS: Who auditions the singers and
determines the sound? How many of you?
Matt: It happens in two rounds. The
first round is a taped audition. Joe and I listen to all the tapes, and
narrow it down to about a dozen people that we want to hear audition.
Then the entire ensemble takes part in the
live audition. We in fact sing with them. We spend an entire day or two,
sometimes plugging the amen weíre auditioning in and out of the existing
ensemble. Thatís the only way to tell if someone is going to work or not.
Some people can give a stellar solo audition,
can read notes off the page of music, but when put alongside other people,
stick out like a sore thumb. Other people can bomb their solo audition and
canít read anything because their mind is racing 100 miles a minute, but,
once they get in with a group of people, sing like theyíve always belonged
with them. It really takes all 12 of us and Joe and even our office staff
and Board Ė family you know Ė people who really know the ensemble well to
make those decisions.
JVS: Eric, youíve been here for 16
years, but others have lasted a much shorter time. Besides purely vocal
considerations, what causes someone to move on? Is the touring difficult? Do
they see this as just one phase of their singing trajectory?
Eric: All of the above. There are so
many different reasons for coming to and leaving the ensemble.
It is a very difficult lifestyle, because the
demands are incessant. In many ways itís very simple. You donít have to do
the 9 to 5 at the office. But youíre constantly on call for concerts, press
events, fundraising, and educational outreach. It can be very disruptive if
you want to be able to regularly come home to your honey and have a normal
life. Itís not that.
But it can be very rewarding. It depends on
the personís temperament: how well they can cope with a perpetually
peripatetic life, always being on the go. It can also depend on the
relationships they have in their personal life: if theyíre married or
partnered, can the person at home can take care of themselves or does the
person on the road constantly feel pulled back to San Francisco. It also can
depend on their professional outlook: would they like to do this for a long
time, or is this a stepping stone to something else, or is this an
opportunity to do what theyíve always wanted to do, and theyíll see how long
it fits into their life?
I think the people who stay longer realize
itís something they really enjoy, itís a lifestyle they can live with, and
itís something theyíre willing to invest into.
JVS: How many long-timers have been
able to sustain a long-term relationship?
Matt: Over the history of Chanticleer,
Eric: Four of us are married to women.
Weíve had up to eight people who were in long-term relationships in the
ensemble at the same time.
JVS: People oftentimes assume youíre a
Eric: As we like to point out, weíre
not a gay organization, weíre not a straight organization. Weíre a musical
organization. Whatever the members are individually is pure circumstance.
Matt: An interview for one of the gay
rags in Paris summed it up very well. They said, this is not a group that
comes together based on sexual orientation. Itís a group a group that comes
together based on a belief in music and music making. And thatís it, period.
Eric: I donít think Louis had creating
a gay ensemble as a goal, and I donít think Chanticleer was ever all gay. I
sang with one of the original members, Mark Daniels, who was decidedly
As for me personally, Iím straight and
Matt: Iím certainly not straight! [All
Itís interesting. Not only does this question
come up, but in lots of places weíre asked if weíre Christian or what are
our ethnic backgrounds.
Right now weíre all white, except Eric, who is
a very vanilla Mexican. Some people wonder why we donít have more
African-Americans or Asians, but those arenít audition criteria. The only
thing you have to have is a solid technique, be very flexible in the styles
in which you can sing, be a top-notch musician, and be a boy.
JVS: Could you be a transgender boy?
Matt: That situation has never come up.
If it does, Iím sure itíll be fodder for lots of news articles.
JVS: I reviewed your new album as a
spiritual coming out of sorts. Youíre known for performing a lot of
Christian music, but here you get into New Age and Buddhist and a lot more.
I just love the mix.
Iím discovering that a lot of groups are
trying to break down barriers through music. Did such a desire or vision in
any way guide your new CD, Sound in Spirit?
Matt: Yes. The conception developed out
of the live concert by the same name, whose original impetus came from the
idea of music and its healing capacities Ė how those two can work together.
Thatís a very spiritual idea, the idea of a higher spirit and how music taps
Yes, weíre very familiar with European
Christian music, which is one example of music tapping into a spiritual
belief. Itís not the only example, but it is one, which is why the Victoria
and the other Christian piece are on the CD. They represent one incarnation
of music reaching the Divine. But there are lots of other traditions that do
the same thing.
The entire group is unified in the belief that
music does exist on a higher plane. Even though we all donít necessarily
have the same religious beliefs, we do share the belief that music is a
spiritual gateway to that other place, that higher being, whatever you want
to call it. The CD definitely allows for many many different religious
beliefs as long as you believe in music and its transcendent power.
JVS: I love the CD. Do you ever have
someone in the group whoís an atheist? Iíd think theyíd have trouble with
Matt: Thatís not true at all. People
have had all sorts of different beliefs: Jews, Wiccans, Pagans, Hedonists.
But itís the belief in music. For some people, the belief in music itself is
their religion. Maybe thatís it. But itís something thatís beyond everyday
JVS: Does Joe choose the repertoire and
Eric: Yes, heís the impetus behind all
of this. Heís the most inspired of all of us, especially when it comes to
programming. Heíll dream up wild ideas, ruminate on them for a while, and
eventually come up with something. It sometimes takes us by surprise until
we live with it for awhile, look at it, and realize itís what we want to do.
Itís pretty amazing.
JVS: What program has taken you by
Eric: Around ten years ago, I objected
to one as the wrong vehicle for Chanticleer. Joe and Louis came up with the
idea together: Brittenís Curlew River.
JVS: Fabulous production.
Eric: It was a fabulous production. It
was staged, theatrical, all of that. Some of us, myself included, didnít go
into that whole opera realm because we liked ensemble music more. I never
considered it one of my stronger suits, and wondered about the capabilities
I was assured to live with it and be patient.
We worked really hard with the director, doing a lot of physical and
theatrical stuff. But I still wasnít in a very good space about it for a
Then, when I saw the production come together,
I realized just how wrong I was. It really was transcendent and incredibly
powerful. Especially when the people in the audience began to respond to
what they had seen, I realized how inspired the production was. What a risk
and great reward Joe had taken and received.
JVS: Remind me who sang the central
The madwoman was the central character. Kevin
Baum sang it both times we mounted the production. There were two other
tenors who sang it in different years. If he was thin and very very blond,
he was David Munderlow.
JVS: Whomever I saw do it was just
extraordinary. I was riveted.
Have any other programs caused your eyebrows
to go up to your hairline?
Matt: There have been pieces and things
that have surprised me, especially the staged pieces. The Hildegaard project
we just did was staged and included some spoken dialogue. It was a bit of a
shock to take on, and took a lot of time to get there, but people seemed to
really enjoy it.
Also, this new CD. The improvisation we
created right there in the studio. And letís talk about the last gospel CD,
where Joe decided on the last night that he was going to compose a piece
right then and there which we were going to record at 4 in the morning. Itís
the last track, and it turned out to be one of the very best tracks on CD
and one of my favorite things to listen to. There we were, wheeling out a
piano and learning it on the spot. We do get taken by surprise a lot.
JVS: Letís talk about the Christmas
program this year.
Matt: Our audience has come to expect a
certain sort of Christmas program. We have no problem giving them what they
want, because we enjoy the program as well. Weíll be doing early music for
the most part in the first half, and things that people might recognize,
such as carols, in the second half.
Eric: As we like to say, itís the
telling of the Christmas story through several hundred years of music.
JVS: Do you do candlelight processions
in most of your concerts?
Eric: Yes. The Metropolitan Museum
probably wonít let us, because all those works of art are very flammable.
Matt: We usually use candles in
churches, because theyíre used to lighting them anyway.
Eric: The church in Westport, CT where
weíll perform is fairly intimate. Itís pretty small and very charming
Matt: Are you doing new pieces for
Matt: Yes. There are some original
compositions by contemporary composers, but we havenít received them yet.
Eric Thiman and Anthony Hedges are the composers. Weíve never recorded their
music before. They didnít write the pieces specifically for us; Joe found
them. We are doing some of Joeís own arrangements: one of his Christmas
gospel medleys and his arrangement of the Canadian Huron carol.
Eric: Thatís a lovely one.
Matt: As far as the Christmas concert
is concerned, itís one of those things like falling in love. You donít know
what it feels like until youíve experienced it.
Weíve found that our Christmas concerts are
sort of an indescribable experience, for both audience members and us. We
love the Christmas concerts just as much as audience members do. You canít
really explain why. Thereís something about the season, the music, the
weather outside, about candlelight, about hearing a tune that youíve known
since you were a child, that makes the whole thing such a special
Weíre also not a terribly austere group. We
like talking to the audience and meeting them afterwards. The whole thing
comes together such a wonderful experience both for us as performers and, as
we hear from audience members, for them. Itís a real highlight of their
Christmas season. All you can do is encourage people to come and hope that
they experience it as well and promise them that, if they do, theyíll like
it and theyíll feel the same way. We invite people into this warm,
Christmasy circle that we create.
JVS: Thank you. Youíve just said the
word: warm. As Iíve been trying to remember how Iíve felt at your Christmas
concerts, ďwarmĒ is exactly it. It was warm, it was loving. There was a glow
around the group because of how you did the music and the energy you
created. You could feel that glow collectively in the audience.
There are those rare artistic experiences in
whatever medium where all of a sudden you feel close to the person across
the room. I experienced that in that concert.
What would you want people whoíve never heard
you before to know about Chanticleer? Whatís special about Chanticleer and
distinguishes you from other a cappella male vocal ensembles?
Matt: It is a male ensemble, and we use
the full range of the male voice. There are a lot of people who havenít
heard countertenors before. The fact that we do have adult males singing the
full choral range, from the lowest bass to the highest soprano, is
Oftentimes liken our sound to a family of
instruments. You get a different sound if you have all of a family of viols
as opposed to violins playing with clarinets and flutes. It is a unique
sound, with more homogeneity to the sound than when you have men and womenís
JVS: Are you still the only full-time
male vocal ensemble in the U.S.A.?
Matt: You have to check Cantusí website
to see what they say about themselves. [Note: Cantus all considers
themselves full-time]. It also depends upon what you mean by full-time. If
other groups call themselves full-time, weíre probably the most full-time of
the full-time. We literally have no time to do anything else, which is why
some people leave the ensemble. No one has time for Sunday church gigs or
If people have other aspirations than being
members of Chanticleer, they canít develop them while theyíre members of
Chanticleer, because Chanticleer takes up every waking moment of your life.
In that respect, itís definitely unique. Other groups may enable you to eek
out a living, but you often supplement your income from other work or gigs.
We have no time to do that.
JVS: Have any singers left Chanticleer
to develop professional solo careers?
Matt: There might be one soon. Matt
Alber who left us recently is hoping to sign a solo record deal in the pop
realm. Frank Albinder leads a notable early music ensemble in Washington,
D.C. Several people have prestigious vocal and choral teaching positions at
universities around the country.
We try very hard not to imitate styles. We try
very hard to just do the style. Thereís a big difference between imitating a
style and actually singing in the style. Itís miles different in terms of
work, and how you need to open yourself up. Itís one thing to just ape
something, but itís another thing entirely to take a tradition you didnít
grow up in and make it part of your bones and part of your blood in a very
short period of time.
JVS: Are you able to figure out in
additions if a singer is versatile enough to go from American music to
Eric: All of us bring a different set
of strengths and weaknesses to the ensemble when we join. We try to bolster
up some of the weaknesses, but part of it is just learning on the job and
growing and evolving and maturing musically as youíre in the ensemble. There
are other times when you have to lean on the strengths of others. Luckily,
we come from such diverse backgrounds a lot of people have familiarity with
almost every style weíve come across. We can have those people take the lead
and try to get us on the right path. If itís still a bit complicated, we can
ask for outside help. But normally we do really well on our own.
I didnít grow up with a lot of spirituals and
gospels in Southern California. But through the strengths of others,
especially with Joe, I get closer to those styles than I would have on my
JVS: I ended up with a surprise
interview with Dawn Upshaw yesterday.
She was delighted to be called the Meryl
Streep of vocalism, because she stretches herself so much. You seem to be
doing the same in the wide range of your programs.
Eric: Thatís probably why Dawn ended up
recording a CD with us, Christmas with Chanticleer Featuring Dawn Upshaw.
JVS: What more would you like people to
know about Chanticleer that we havenít already covered?
Matt: Weíre focusing a lot of attention
on our educational outreach, and the impact weíve found can have on future
generations of choral singers and choral audience members. This spring weíll
be doing a big high school music festival in New Canaan, CT. Weíre also
doing them in Minneapolis, Fresno, San Francisco, and in Tokyo this year,
besides doing a lot of individual master classes, visiting schools and
having schools visit us.
Weíre very thrilled that weíre at a point
where we can devote time to paying back the musical community and do these
educational activities to continue to develop the choral art in the younger
JVS: What interesting programs are
coming up in the spring?
Matt: In the Bay Area concert season,
we have two interesting programs coming up in the string. One focuses on
Antoine Brumelís Earthquake Mass. Brumel isnít that well known as a
Baroque CD, but heís one of our ďsleeperĒ favorites to whom we devoted an
entire CD. Weíre singing his Earthquake Mass to mix the 100th
anniversary of the San Francisco earthquake.
JVS: Are you going to record it?
Matt: Weíre like everyone else; the
record company has just as much say as we do. We donít just decide to record
The other program is two masses by Victoria
and Guerrero based on the Janequin programmatic madrigal, La Guerre.
Victoria and Guerrero stole the musical ideas of La Guerre and
incorporated them respectively into masses. Itís very interesting. The
madrigal has all of these nonsense syllables that imitate the sounds of war.
Itís interesting to hear it translated into a mass setting.
Eric: Itís an example of how the
profane gets transformed into the sacred.
- Jason Victor Serinus -