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Surround Sound Processors Denon AVP-A1HDCI Surround Sound Processor and POA-A1HDCI Power Amplifier
Surround Sound Processors Denon AVP-A1HDCI Surround Sound Processor and POA-A1HDCI Power Amplifier
Surround Sound Processors
| Denon AVP-A1HDCI Surround Sound Processor and POA-A1HDCI Power Amplifier |
| Written by John E. Johnson, Jr. |
| Sunday, 26 October 2008 17:00 |
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Page 5 of 5
Conclusions The Denon AVP-A1HDCI SSP and POA-A1HDCI power amplifier represent the next level in surround sound flexibility. The SSP will decode anything, including SACD and the new high def movie soundtracks. It sets up easily, in spite of a very complex, powerful set of menu options, and with its on-line firmware update capability, will refuse to be out of date with improvements and other features that emerge. It is designed specifically as a digital processor. If you are still using the two-channel analog outputs on your CD player, you might consider some other processor, but for those of you with a rack full of HDMI sources, this setup will give you great satisfaction. Comments (18)
Processor
written by jim , October 27, 2008 Being that this unit is so expensive and some of that has to do with the processor it uses don't you think it would be important to touch on it. I mean not knowing if it properly scales, deinterlaces and such is kinda impt. There are plenty or processors out there that are far less that produce prob the same level of sound but maybe the processor the denon has makes it worth the price, but without talking of it doesn't make sense. Not trying to sound like an a*&, but your reviews are usually great to go by. Just thought this one was kinda one sided re: audio vs video. . .
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written by JEJ , October 28, 2008 I just used the video as a pass-through configuration on the Denon SSP. The projector scaled everything to 720p and the flat panel TV scaled it to 1080p. 480i programs on satellite TV look terrible regardless of the scaling, and I have never seen SD DVD's 480i look much different whether it is scaled to 1080p or just left alone, except for reducing the visibility of the scan lines. To me, HD is so much a part of everyday TV watching, that 480i material is like trying to do something with an old 78 RPM record. Secondly, neither of my displays allows the video to pass through without processing, so the image is a result of whatever processing the SSP does, plus its own processing. Not to mention any processing in the player. What is really needed for testing an outboard processor or processor in a receiver is an analytical instrument that outputs HDMI test signals which would go to the DUT (Device Under Test), and the output from the DUT goes back to the analytical instrument. Audio Precision has just announced an HDMI test instrument, but it's not within our budget.
Excellent review on the audio side of things
written by Martin , October 29, 2008 Also glad to see someone focusing on SACD when doing a review of a product in this price range. I had actually come to terms with the A1HDCI not being able to decode the format, since it curiously does not list it as part of the supported codecs, nor includes the logo on its front panel. (A rather strange omission if you ask me.)
Did he listen to it?
written by Bob , October 30, 2008 Lots of good detail about features and measurements, but not enough comments and examples about the sound quality. Did he listen to the thing?
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written by JEJ , October 30, 2008 My remarks about the sound are at the top of page 3. If you are looking for the type of comment that says, 'On this recording, 1 minute 42 seconds into track 4, the clarinets had more air and substance', that is not my style. I see those kinds of review statements with some other authors, but it is not the way I write. However, I did go back and add a few more specific comments about the sound stage. I hope that helps. The problem is that, for multi-channel sound, it becomes more difficult to make subjective appraisals because there are so many speakers playing at the same time. When you have two speakers, they are usually identical speakers and always represent a straight line that connects them. With surround sound, the center channel speaker may have a different driver configuration and is horizontal. The surround speakers can be any of several different designs, such as direct radiating, dipole, or bipole, and can be located at various lateral positions with respect to the listener. So, sound stage observations about surround sound equipment are not nearly so likely to be repeatable in another person's listening room. I do admit that I tend to be succinct to say the least, but that is just my style of writing.
2 Channel Analog
written by Tasso , October 31, 2008 Many people are buying the AVP-A1HD as a single solution for both AV and 2 channel HiFi applications. Denon literature indicate that its CD analog inputs will transmit analog signals entirely in the analog domain.(multichannel analog signals are converted to digital) This would of course be of enormous benefit if connecting a high end CD/SACD player. Can you confirm that this is in fact the case?
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written by JEJ , October 31, 2008 The analog CD inputs are handled entirely in the analog domain if you press the Pure Direct button. Here is an answer direct from Denon: When inputting an analog signal, and in Stereo, Direct or Pure Direct Mode, all DSP processing is bypassed. However in Stereo mode we tap the analog signal to send to the DSP for subwoofer output if selected – the analog signal gets an analog high-pass filter at 80Hz. In Direct mode, same thing happens for the sub, but no high-pass analog filter is engaged. In Pure Direct, the DSP and Video sections are turned off completely. We also have the ability to change the speaker configuration for Stereo/Direct listening in the Audio Setup section of the GUI. You will see a ‘2ch Direct/Stereo’ section where you can use the Global settings or change them to your preferences whenever you select Stereo or Direct. Tone Controls are always available unless you select Bypass.
Audessey
written by jzh10 , November 02, 2008 Your review was very clear that you preferred the Audessey processing for both audio and video. Audessey is taking what their engineers know about how we listen and compensating for your environment to try and result in an adjusted mix that sounds the best to us. To me, a logical corollary to this is that if different processors have the same Audessey system, the final mix from all the different units should sound very similar, since Audessey is adjusting them to match what they feel is the best mix. In the end, does this reduce the audible differences between different brands of processors (or complete receivers)? Audessey is dramatically adjusting the "natural" sound that is different for different manufacturers. I'm not saying this as a criticism of Audessey, but instead that as the Audessey or similar systems become more powerful, there may be less of a reason to purchase the top end processors since their sound won't be unique anymore! If you prefer not to use Audessey, then ignore this argument. And if the best processors have other features that you can only find there, then, again, ignore this argument. But for most people I think this is valid. As an aside, wouldn't it also be helpful if you could store the Audessey settings in processor memory, so that you could experiment away and then restore back the original settings? And you sure seem to keep alot of Denon around the house...
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written by JEJ , November 03, 2008 Audyssey only processes the audio, not the video. I do like it very much, but there needs to be some memory banks to store several Audyssey measurement sets, so you could activate one for each of several different listening positions. Secondly, it is not clear when the subwoofer crossover is active and when it is not. You can go in and change it, but there should be an indication on the front panel that the subwoofer crossover is active so that low frequencies go to the sub, or that it is disables, so that all frequencies, including the low frequencies, are going to the main speakers. For example, even in Direct mode, the subwoofer crossover is active unless you go into the menu and turn it off. As to your question about Audyssey making all processors sound the same, even though the Audyssey circuit may be the same in each processor, the processor circuits are not the same. Some processors have higher distortion than others, and Audyssey does not EQ the distortion peaks.
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written by JEJ , November 03, 2008 Regarding using the AVP-A1HDCI as a high end two-channel preamplifier for use with analog CD player outputs, I experimented with this, and found that I really enjoyed having some DPL-IIx processing for two-channel CDs. I played Miles Davis Kind of Blue, letting the AVP-A1HDCI do the bitstream decoding, and then using DPL-IIx. It put Davis' trumpet in the center, alto sax on the left, and drums on the right. It did not have the visceral feeling that I get when I play the LP version in our other lab, but it was still a very appealing way to hear that old two-channel recording. The DACs in the AVP-A1HDCI are top notch, so don't discount sending the signal via HDMI or coax/optical, and lettting the processor decode it for you.
Multichannel SACD
written by Gregor Samsa , November 08, 2008 "dedicated SACD players are two-channel only" I am having trouble understanding what you mean by this. There are many SACD players that are multichannel, including the Denon that you used in the review. An interesting comparison would have been to evaluate the analog output of this unit vs sending it through the Denon Link. Also, if you're using WEP, prepare to be hacked. Even WPA is getting shaky these days.
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written by JEJ , November 09, 2008 I used a Denon DVD-2930CI DVD player that will also output multi-channel SACD bitstreams through its Denon Link. It is not a dedicated SACD player, meaning that it is not specifically designed as an SACD player. When you look at players that are advertised specifically as SACD players, they are usually two-channel only. There are two advantages of using the single Denon Link cable to send SACD to the processor. One is that it eliminates the need for six cables. Secondly, the DACs in the Denon AVP-A1HDCI SSP are far superior to the DACs in that $899 DVD player.
AMP?
written by William Mackey , November 11, 2008 Great review, just wondering if you have used avp-a1 with another amp ie classe or mcintosh? I was thinking of getting the avp-a1 but don't know which amp or amps i should get? Amps have to be one of the hardest decisions when putting together a nice system? what would your opinion be regarding similar priced amps in this catagory, ie anthem, classe or the denon poa? Thanks, Bill
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written by JEJ , November 11, 2008 I bought the AVP-A1HDCI SSP and now use it with a Classe CA-5200 power amplifier instead of the Denon POA-A1HDCI power amplifier that was reviewed with the SSP. Anthem power amplifiers are also excellent. This is one processor that deserves top notch power to go with it.
Not a SACD player?
written by Gregor Samsa , November 24, 2008 The Denon 2930CI is most certainly a SACD player, and a most versatile one. It will play 2 channel analog from SACDs. As you point out, it will stream DSD to any component with Denon Link. Most to the point for my argument, it will decode DSD and send it over multi-channel analog to any pre or AVR with multi-channel analog inputs. This has been the case for every SACD player that Denon has made. I know, I have 2 of them. The fact that they also decode other formats, doesn't mean it's not a SACD player. The most limited of such players also play Redbook. Denon is not the only manufacturer that makes players with this capability. The best digital I ever heard was a Meitner SACD sending analog to Halcro amplification which had no digital input. You are correct about the advantages of Denon Link, but I'm afraid your review will give people the mistaken idea that you need something like Denon Link to get multi-channel SACD. The format is in enough trouble without this.
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written by JEJ , November 24, 2008 I did not say the 2930CI was not an SACD player. I said it is not a dedicated SACD player, meaning that SACD is not its primary function.
Denon POA-A1HDCI
written by MTL , December 07, 2008 Did you recognize a significant gain in performance when using the Classe CA-5200 over the A1HDCI?
Denon POA-A1HDCI
written by M , October 20, 2009 I'm planning on purchasing the Denon stack and wanted to know if anyone else is having problems with Volume scaling issue (Audyssey and other processes can limit max volume). Additional information concerning issue: Volume Scaling Issue Upon getting my AVP-A1HDCI fully calibrated, I was prepared to start doing some listening tests. I started out with a few CD’s engaged in PLIIx Music Mode. The system sounded great as I kept pumping up the volume and was a bit perplexed that I quickly hit max volume and it wasn’t all that loud. There I was with a $14k separates rig from Denon which was barely sustaining 85dB SPL levels in my theater room. What gives, I asked myself? I soon realized that once I engaged Audyssey, it severely limited the max volume level in the AVP-A1HDCI. Upon further investigation, I discovered it was a combination of Audyssey + 7.1 post processing surround Mode (ie. PLIIx Music Mode, DTS, Neo, etc) that was leading to this problem. Combine this deficiency when listening to a low compression source with an inherently low signal level, and you’ve got a receipt for severe volume limiting. I ran into this scenario quite often when using my Toshiba HD-A2 HD DVD player to playback discs recorded in Dolby TrueHD and even after I boosted the input level by +10dB and turned Audyssey off, I still found myself wanting to turn the volume higher than it would let me. What appeared to be happening is an issue with the overall gain structure and the demands from multiple processes placed on the volume IC’s utilized in this product. The list of processes that require headroom is quite long which include THX, Subwoofer gain compensation (up to +8 dB), channel trims (up to +12 dB), downmixing (up to +11 dB of headroom in the worst case), Tone control, MultEQ (up to 9 dB), and others. So, in a worst case scenario (e.g. if you are in downmixing mode and the trim on your sub is near the max, or perhaps tone control is on) you will not be able to reach master volume indication above 0 dB. Denon is NOT alone here. Other manufacturers are facing this issue but they are a bit more clever hiding it. For example, I’ve come to find out that the latest generation of Onkyo receivers have a similar issue, but the volume indicator will always allow the user to reach max volume despite it won’t continue to get any louder beyond a certain point. An industry insider has indicated to me that a new technology is enabling Volume IC chips with higher headroom and they will start to become available next year. Unfortunately this does no good for consumers facing this problem now with the current generation of products, but I do have some suggestions to help minimize the impact. * Scale down your channel trims – if you have your sub boosted to +3dB, scale it back to 0dB while also scaling back all other channels by 3dB * If the sub levels were boosted in the processor during setup, adjust them down to 0dB or lower and proportionally increase their respective levels via your subwoofer(s) master volume control * Increase source level per input as needed * If using the POA-A1HDCI, bridge the front channels if you’re got two channels to spare. This will increase your output level by +6dB * Don’t use tone controls or downmix options source-level.jpgBy trimming down two of my subwoofers from +2.5dB and +1.5dB respectively, I got back 2.5db of gain on my master volume but I also had to turn down the channel trims on all other channels the same so it was essentially a net wash. However, I did play with input source level adjustments and was able to set the source to +7dB without causing the max master volume limit to decrease. Thus I got back a some of the headroom with this trick and I suggest you experiment with it should you run into a similar issue when engaging Audyssey room correction in a post processing mode such as PLIIx Music/Cinema. Hopefully the forthcoming EQ editing feature for Audyssey will allow the user to limit the boost (especially on the surround channels) to minimize headroom loss and ensure you can never reach the limit of the volume control in any listening situation. Until this issue can be resolved, I have no choice but to lower the performance rating of this processor to a 4.5 / 5 though this product revealed benchmark performance in every test I threw at it in the lab. I also feel it important to note that according to my contacts at Denon, I am the only user currently reporting this as an issue despite the hundreds of consumers currently enjoying this product. Write comment
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