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Bryston 9B SST2 Multi-channel Amplifier
Jared Rachwalski - Tuesday, 09 February 2010
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Jared Rachwalski - Tuesday, 09 February 2010
Bryston is known for building some of the most sought-after, powerful and dependable amplifiers in the business. For over 40 years they have provided one of the most comprehensive warranty coverage of any manufacture of any product (not just audio), a 20 year transferable warranty, practically unheard of in this or any industry. If you find one, (that is if you can find one) on the used market chances are it will still be under warranty. There rare appearance on the used market has as much to do with their sound quality and dependable (high) power delivery as it does with their warranty. Here, we review their 9B SST2, which is a five channel (5 x 140 watts) power amplifier.
Comments (6)
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written by Willis_ , February 08, 2010
No benchmarks or measurements? Looks like another overpriced amp that does not offer anything "different" from much cheaper makers.
written by Willis_ , February 08, 2010
No benchmarks or measurements? Looks like another overpriced amp that does not offer anything "different" from much cheaper makers.
That's a lot of dough for an amp nowadays!
written by Robert , February 08, 2010
Wow! I know Briston is great, and 20-year warranty is the best...
But, today, we can all get an Emotiva amp or two, that will totally satysfy our needs for much more less.
$6,700, let me stop in my feet here for a moment, and use my brains to aqnalyse the situation...
That's right, I don't have to, because I know already the intelligence of most people reading this.
We are not living in the 70's anymore, it is the year 2010, which is already the future.
But, is it a smart future, or one that is desillusional?
That is the question.
Bryston, you make very good amps, with the very best warranty, but as a Canadian myself, I'm asking you to readjust your prices with the harsh reality we live in. And I know you can do it, but will you?
How long till someone else like Emotiva, put you out of business? And I was proud to be a Canadian!
written by Robert , February 08, 2010
Wow! I know Briston is great, and 20-year warranty is the best...
But, today, we can all get an Emotiva amp or two, that will totally satysfy our needs for much more less.
$6,700, let me stop in my feet here for a moment, and use my brains to aqnalyse the situation...
That's right, I don't have to, because I know already the intelligence of most people reading this.
We are not living in the 70's anymore, it is the year 2010, which is already the future.
But, is it a smart future, or one that is desillusional?
That is the question.
Bryston, you make very good amps, with the very best warranty, but as a Canadian myself, I'm asking you to readjust your prices with the harsh reality we live in. And I know you can do it, but will you?
How long till someone else like Emotiva, put you out of business? And I was proud to be a Canadian!
Bryston
written by Piero , February 09, 2010
Bryston starts from the ground up on all their amps with almost exclusively proprietary parts, and is made and assembled in Canada. They are solidly built and back their products for years. Tell me if in 5 years, 10 years, or 20 years if your mass produced receiver will sound as good as this Bryston. This is a product you buy for life. No measurements will tell you that.
written by Piero , February 09, 2010
Bryston starts from the ground up on all their amps with almost exclusively proprietary parts, and is made and assembled in Canada. They are solidly built and back their products for years. Tell me if in 5 years, 10 years, or 20 years if your mass produced receiver will sound as good as this Bryston. This is a product you buy for life. No measurements will tell you that.
Bryston
written by Ron , February 09, 2010
There is no doubt that Bryston has been making excellent products at their plant in PETERBOROUGH, Ontario, Canada for many years. Much of the price has to do with the fact that it is manufactured in Canada and not overseas thus substantially increased labor costs along with an unprecedented warranty.
I do wonder, however, in recent times. regardless of price, the "innards" of many of these units(high-end or otherwise) are pretty much ALL manufactured and imported from overseas which makes one wonder how, in this case and of course considering the competition, the company can STILL justify its price point?
written by Ron , February 09, 2010
There is no doubt that Bryston has been making excellent products at their plant in PETERBOROUGH, Ontario, Canada for many years. Much of the price has to do with the fact that it is manufactured in Canada and not overseas thus substantially increased labor costs along with an unprecedented warranty.
I do wonder, however, in recent times. regardless of price, the "innards" of many of these units(high-end or otherwise) are pretty much ALL manufactured and imported from overseas which makes one wonder how, in this case and of course considering the competition, the company can STILL justify its price point?
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Marantz UD9004 Universal Blu-ray Player
Robert Kozel and Adrian Wittenberg - Monday, 08 February 2010
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Robert Kozel and Adrian Wittenberg - Monday, 08 February 2010
When I hear the name Marantz, the first thing that comes to mind for me is music. From the 1950’s when Saul Marantz introduced the company’s first preamplifier, Marantz has been creating products which help people enjoy music in their lives. Today they create some of the best high performance audio products available as well as products which are accessible to the average home theater enthusiast. The Marantz UD9004 is their flagship universal disc player and is designed to let you enjoy every conceivable disc in your collection.
Comments (7)
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written by Willis_ , February 08, 2010
There are 2 options instead of the rebadged mcintosh MVP881.
written by Willis_ , February 08, 2010
There are 2 options instead of the rebadged mcintosh MVP881.
Pointing out the obvious
written by Roy , February 08, 2010
Given the very good DAC section of such an expensive device....why is there not digital inputs so that you can use it as a DAC for other source components? Yes, I get that this thing plays all kinds of discs, but it would be nice to spend $6K and be able to use it as a DAC for a network streaming device such as an Apple TV. Traditional AV firms need to begin to understand this to stay relevant long-term, IMHO.
written by Roy , February 08, 2010
Given the very good DAC section of such an expensive device....why is there not digital inputs so that you can use it as a DAC for other source components? Yes, I get that this thing plays all kinds of discs, but it would be nice to spend $6K and be able to use it as a DAC for a network streaming device such as an Apple TV. Traditional AV firms need to begin to understand this to stay relevant long-term, IMHO.
Comparison to Denon DVD-A1UDCI??
written by Peter , February 08, 2010
Secrets just released reviews of Denon and Marantz's flagship players, and neither review mentions the other. Since they are produced by the same company, one would assume they share common parts and traits, but the Marantz is $1500 more so knowing what was different would be very useful. I realize there are separate reviewers, but a comparison is really called for here. Is the Marantz worth the $1500 more?
written by Peter , February 08, 2010
Secrets just released reviews of Denon and Marantz's flagship players, and neither review mentions the other. Since they are produced by the same company, one would assume they share common parts and traits, but the Marantz is $1500 more so knowing what was different would be very useful. I realize there are separate reviewers, but a comparison is really called for here. Is the Marantz worth the $1500 more?
Again, I'm just flagrante delicto flabbergasted!
written by Robert , February 08, 2010
I mean, c'mon, Denon, now Marantz, both sister companies of McIntosh. What's next, $20,000 Universal Blu-ray player? And like the first (or was it the 2nd) poster just said here, no digital inputs at that price! This is a clear message.
These products now, that shouldn't anymore, are strictly intended at the people that already have these same brands to martch with them, and are not questioning the true monetary value of the product.
I think, personally, that Secrets should really put a special emphasis right at the beginning of reviews like these, for who these ditto product's reviews are intended for. Or did I missed it?
It seems that with time, my effort to read new reviews on the internet is made easier each day.
Sorry, I just had to get it out of my chest, again!
Nothing against you the writers (reviewers), just my simple opinion. Hey, if indeed there are readers out there interested in these outrageously overpriced products that will become almost obsolete in six months from now; then, kuddos to Denon/Marantz/McIntosh holdings company Inc., that can keep digging into the pockets of the most unfortunate people with too much money and not enough time to get the knowledge necessary to make a wise purchase.
...And the world keeps turning around it's own elliptical orbit...
written by Robert , February 08, 2010
I mean, c'mon, Denon, now Marantz, both sister companies of McIntosh. What's next, $20,000 Universal Blu-ray player? And like the first (or was it the 2nd) poster just said here, no digital inputs at that price! This is a clear message.
These products now, that shouldn't anymore, are strictly intended at the people that already have these same brands to martch with them, and are not questioning the true monetary value of the product.
I think, personally, that Secrets should really put a special emphasis right at the beginning of reviews like these, for who these ditto product's reviews are intended for. Or did I missed it?
It seems that with time, my effort to read new reviews on the internet is made easier each day.
Sorry, I just had to get it out of my chest, again!
Nothing against you the writers (reviewers), just my simple opinion. Hey, if indeed there are readers out there interested in these outrageously overpriced products that will become almost obsolete in six months from now; then, kuddos to Denon/Marantz/McIntosh holdings company Inc., that can keep digging into the pockets of the most unfortunate people with too much money and not enough time to get the knowledge necessary to make a wise purchase.
...And the world keeps turning around it's own elliptical orbit...
Sharing
written by Piero , February 09, 2010
Actually you'd be very surprised how little sharing goes on between Marantz and Denon.
written by Piero , February 09, 2010
Actually you'd be very surprised how little sharing goes on between Marantz and Denon.
Product Differences
written by ChrisHeinonen , February 09, 2010
Here's what Marantz told me are some differences between the two products:
The audio section on the UD9004 is based on Marantz's SA-7S1 Reference SACD player and is completely different from the Denon. The Transformer is different, the chassis is different with more bracing (the Marantz has a full copper chassis), the feet are different, and the cosmetics are different. All of these differences help to make the UD9004 sound as good as possible and also produce the best possible picture.
So, it looks like the video section, which was excellent on the Denon for me, is shared somewhat but the rest of the player has a lot of differences.
written by ChrisHeinonen , February 09, 2010
Here's what Marantz told me are some differences between the two products:
The audio section on the UD9004 is based on Marantz's SA-7S1 Reference SACD player and is completely different from the Denon. The Transformer is different, the chassis is different with more bracing (the Marantz has a full copper chassis), the feet are different, and the cosmetics are different. All of these differences help to make the UD9004 sound as good as possible and also produce the best possible picture.
So, it looks like the video section, which was excellent on the Denon for me, is shared somewhat but the rest of the player has a lot of differences.
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written by Willis_ , February 09, 2010
They have pictures of the internals or did everyone miss that? The DSP, video, DAC's sections will be the same between these players. The marantz does run a solid copper chassis so that is one difference you pay for, even the mcintosh MVP881 rebadged player does not have a solid copper chassis.
written by Willis_ , February 09, 2010
They have pictures of the internals or did everyone miss that? The DSP, video, DAC's sections will be the same between these players. The marantz does run a solid copper chassis so that is one difference you pay for, even the mcintosh MVP881 rebadged player does not have a solid copper chassis.
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Denon DVD-A1UDCI Universal Blu-ray Player
Chris Heinonen and Adrian Wittenberg - Thursday, 04 February 2010
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Chris Heinonen and Adrian Wittenberg - Thursday, 04 February 2010
My wife often enjoyed making fun of how many optical disc players I had in my AV setup. When it was the most out of control, I had an HD-DVD player, a PS3 for Blu-ray movies, an Oppo Universal DVD player, and a Sony SACD changer for music. While DVD-A and SACD didn't catch on with lots of the public, some of us built up a collection of the titles that we want to be able to listen to, and we would like to avoid having an AV rack full of extra players like I do. Denon's new DVD-A1UDCI Universal Blu-ray player handles every format out there, including Blu-ray, SACD, and DVD-A, outputting the signals digitally through its HDMI port.
Comments (19)
Insane Price!!!
written by Todd Sauve , February 04, 2010
I'll stick with my new Oppo BDP-80, which does everything the $4500 Denon does but costs less than $300.
Nothing like keeping more than $4000 of your hard earned dollars. Man, paying that kind of money for universal disc player is just insane!
written by Todd Sauve , February 04, 2010
I'll stick with my new Oppo BDP-80, which does everything the $4500 Denon does but costs less than $300.
Nothing like keeping more than $4000 of your hard earned dollars. Man, paying that kind of money for universal disc player is just insane!
Was this review necessary?
written by Robert , February 04, 2010
I wonder now if it's really worthy to review Denon Blu-ray players. And one that cost $4,500 at that!
written by Robert , February 04, 2010
I wonder now if it's really worthy to review Denon Blu-ray players. And one that cost $4,500 at that!
Really?!
written by Chris , February 04, 2010
So in times of a tough economy, Denon decides to put out $4500 Uni player that hardly surpasses a $500 player..? They should be embarrassed. How can they call that engineering? And why the heck do all these companies keep putting the tray above the display? How can you see the display when the tray is open.
Remember in the early 90's when Technics came out with that $4500 tansport and $4500 DAC?
written by Chris , February 04, 2010
So in times of a tough economy, Denon decides to put out $4500 Uni player that hardly surpasses a $500 player..? They should be embarrassed. How can they call that engineering? And why the heck do all these companies keep putting the tray above the display? How can you see the display when the tray is open.
Remember in the early 90's when Technics came out with that $4500 tansport and $4500 DAC?
Silly Review Without Comparison with the Oppo SE
written by David More , February 05, 2010
All I wanted to say.
written by David More , February 05, 2010
All I wanted to say.
Denon
written by Ron W , February 05, 2010
For the life of me I can never understand why some reviewers keep referring to the analog outs when comparing Blu-Ray players. A $4500 expenditure for a good analog section? It doesn't make any sense. If one is going to spend this kind of money, one can be assured, in order to take advantage of ALL the player's features AND versatility, the vast majority of buyers are going to make connections strictly through HDMI.
If analog is that important, buy the Oppo BDP83SE for still a fraction of the money OR the BDP80/83 and a top quality stand alone CD player.
The prices from Denon and Marantz for these so-called "flagship" units are just totally insane!
Lexicon anyone?
written by Ron W , February 05, 2010
For the life of me I can never understand why some reviewers keep referring to the analog outs when comparing Blu-Ray players. A $4500 expenditure for a good analog section? It doesn't make any sense. If one is going to spend this kind of money, one can be assured, in order to take advantage of ALL the player's features AND versatility, the vast majority of buyers are going to make connections strictly through HDMI.
If analog is that important, buy the Oppo BDP83SE for still a fraction of the money OR the BDP80/83 and a top quality stand alone CD player.
The prices from Denon and Marantz for these so-called "flagship" units are just totally insane!
Lexicon anyone?
Too much money for no real worthy improvement
written by Robert , February 05, 2010
These days of outrageous prices like this are over.
Thank you very much, but no thanks.
written by Robert , February 05, 2010
These days of outrageous prices like this are over.
Thank you very much, but no thanks.
...
written by Willis_ , February 05, 2010
No need the review the mcintosh MVP881 since it is just a rebadged/modded denon.
written by Willis_ , February 05, 2010
No need the review the mcintosh MVP881 since it is just a rebadged/modded denon.
Bravo!
written by Robert , February 05, 2010
Wow! Great review. You guys did a terrific job.
I just wish that I can afford it.
Oh well, I guess I'll get myself an Oppo BDP-83 for $499 then. I'll live with it, till I get a better job or win a downfall, so I can buy more expensive stuff, like this Denon.
written by Robert , February 05, 2010
Wow! Great review. You guys did a terrific job.
I just wish that I can afford it.
Oh well, I guess I'll get myself an Oppo BDP-83 for $499 then. I'll live with it, till I get a better job or win a downfall, so I can buy more expensive stuff, like this Denon.
Similar, not the same
written by ChrisHeinonen , February 06, 2010
I'm not going to debate the price of the Denon, since I know it's well out of the reach of many people that will read the review, and that's fine, but you can't say that the Oppo BDP-80 (and I own the 83 and love it) does everything the Denon does.
The Denon has a large array of other features that are mentioned in the review, such as gamma correction, speaker level and time correct that is far more detailed than the Oppo, balanced outputs, a jitter-free custom Denon output, dual HDMI outputs, and more.
They both play DVD, CD, Blu-ray, DVD-Audio, and SACD discs, and are Profile 2.0, but that doesn't mean they can both do the everything that the other one can. If you would like to dismiss the Denon for a reason other than cost, that's fine, but just because it costs $4,500 doesn't make it insane to purchase it. If I could afford it, I'd have kept the review unit, since it sounded better in my system than anything else I've listened to, including the Oppo players.
I don't dismiss a Nissan GT-R as not being a fantastic car because I can't afford it, and don't label people that buy it as insane, and think the same should be allowed for high end audio and video components.
written by ChrisHeinonen , February 06, 2010
I'm not going to debate the price of the Denon, since I know it's well out of the reach of many people that will read the review, and that's fine, but you can't say that the Oppo BDP-80 (and I own the 83 and love it) does everything the Denon does.
The Denon has a large array of other features that are mentioned in the review, such as gamma correction, speaker level and time correct that is far more detailed than the Oppo, balanced outputs, a jitter-free custom Denon output, dual HDMI outputs, and more.
They both play DVD, CD, Blu-ray, DVD-Audio, and SACD discs, and are Profile 2.0, but that doesn't mean they can both do the everything that the other one can. If you would like to dismiss the Denon for a reason other than cost, that's fine, but just because it costs $4,500 doesn't make it insane to purchase it. If I could afford it, I'd have kept the review unit, since it sounded better in my system than anything else I've listened to, including the Oppo players.
I don't dismiss a Nissan GT-R as not being a fantastic car because I can't afford it, and don't label people that buy it as insane, and think the same should be allowed for high end audio and video components.
Can the price be justified?
written by welwynnick , February 07, 2010
Although HDMI or DL4 is convenient, the best-sounding systems seem to be the ones that use analogue conversion in the player to feed high-end processors and separate amplifiers. No disrespect, but the A1UDCI wasn't intended to be paired with a mid-range receiver that falls some way short of realising the SQ potential of even the 3800BDCI.
written by welwynnick , February 07, 2010
Although HDMI or DL4 is convenient, the best-sounding systems seem to be the ones that use analogue conversion in the player to feed high-end processors and separate amplifiers. No disrespect, but the A1UDCI wasn't intended to be paired with a mid-range receiver that falls some way short of realising the SQ potential of even the 3800BDCI.
...
written by Robert , February 07, 2010
For who these reviews are for? For normal people or abnormal?
What's the true point? Where are we going?
Are we living in a normal planet called Earth?
Well, maybe not normal then.
Anyway, smart people do get it. Fun to read, no more.
I can live without though, as I rather read something I can truly use and benefit from.
That's just my opinion, no more.
written by Robert , February 07, 2010
For who these reviews are for? For normal people or abnormal?
What's the true point? Where are we going?
Are we living in a normal planet called Earth?
Well, maybe not normal then.
Anyway, smart people do get it. Fun to read, no more.
I can live without though, as I rather read something I can truly use and benefit from.
That's just my opinion, no more.
Comment Responses
written by ChrisHeinonen , February 07, 2010
"Silly Review Without Comparison with the Oppo SE "
When I had the Denon player for review, the Oppo SE wasn't announced, and so wasn't available to me yet and I had no chance to compare the two. I plan to add the Oppo SE so I can use it for future comparisons, but there was no possible way to compare them then, and doing it now if I were to have the SE around would just rely on memory and wouldn't be fair.
"For the life of me I can never understand why some reviewers keep referring to the analog outs when comparing Blu-Ray players. A $4500 expenditure for a good analog section? It doesn't make any sense. If one is going to spend this kind of money, one can be assured, in order to take advantage of ALL the player's features AND versatility, the vast majority of buyers are going to make connections strictly through HDMI. "
This isn't a player for the vast majority of buyers, and is almost certainly aimed at those that would take advantage of the analog outputs of the player. It you look at my review of the Panasonic BD-60 recently, I used HDMI for the only connection for my testing there as I felt that was the way the majority of people would use it. For the Denon, I made sure to test it both ways, as people certainly are going to buy this for the analog section, and I try to make sure I cater the review to who is going to use the product.
"Lexicon anyone?" and "No need the review the mcintosh MVP881 since it is just a rebadged/modded denon."
Please don't compare what Lexicon did with their recent Blu-ray player to these Denon, or the similar Marantz, models. The Lexicon deal has been discussed to death, and I don't have any extra insight to add to that matter.
However, Denon (and their parent company) engineered a truly high-end product here without cost as a regard. They didn't add a case just to add weight, or put their low end model into a high end case, it's a totally different product from their other players, and have nothing in common with the Lexicon player as far as what you are trying to insinuate.
For the McIntosh and Denon being related, I have no idea about that. However, while the video sections of the rear of the units appear to be the same, the audio sections and power supplies appear to be very different. Given that both companies have the same parent company, it wouldn't surprise me if McIntosh used the Denon video section, which was excellent, and added their own analog audio and power sections to the unit so it can perform to the level that they want to to perform, and if that improves upon the Denon, that would be an excellent sounding unit.
"No disrespect, but the A1UDCI wasn't intended to be paired with a mid-range receiver that falls some way short of realising the SQ potential of even the 3800BDCI."
I wish I had a higher end receiver, or a processor and amplifier section, to use with the Denon, but with the equipment I had and was using at the time (Pioneer SC-27, which was an excellent receiver and I would highly recommend), the Denon was still superior to anything I had heard. With higher end components in the chain, I can see the performance only improving, and my recommendation only getting stronger.
Like I said in my earlier post, I realize the Denon is expensive, and more than I and most people can afford, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's a fantastically built and engineered unit, and one that I imagine many of us can wish we could have in our systems.
written by ChrisHeinonen , February 07, 2010
"Silly Review Without Comparison with the Oppo SE "
When I had the Denon player for review, the Oppo SE wasn't announced, and so wasn't available to me yet and I had no chance to compare the two. I plan to add the Oppo SE so I can use it for future comparisons, but there was no possible way to compare them then, and doing it now if I were to have the SE around would just rely on memory and wouldn't be fair.
"For the life of me I can never understand why some reviewers keep referring to the analog outs when comparing Blu-Ray players. A $4500 expenditure for a good analog section? It doesn't make any sense. If one is going to spend this kind of money, one can be assured, in order to take advantage of ALL the player's features AND versatility, the vast majority of buyers are going to make connections strictly through HDMI. "
This isn't a player for the vast majority of buyers, and is almost certainly aimed at those that would take advantage of the analog outputs of the player. It you look at my review of the Panasonic BD-60 recently, I used HDMI for the only connection for my testing there as I felt that was the way the majority of people would use it. For the Denon, I made sure to test it both ways, as people certainly are going to buy this for the analog section, and I try to make sure I cater the review to who is going to use the product.
"Lexicon anyone?" and "No need the review the mcintosh MVP881 since it is just a rebadged/modded denon."
Please don't compare what Lexicon did with their recent Blu-ray player to these Denon, or the similar Marantz, models. The Lexicon deal has been discussed to death, and I don't have any extra insight to add to that matter.
However, Denon (and their parent company) engineered a truly high-end product here without cost as a regard. They didn't add a case just to add weight, or put their low end model into a high end case, it's a totally different product from their other players, and have nothing in common with the Lexicon player as far as what you are trying to insinuate.
For the McIntosh and Denon being related, I have no idea about that. However, while the video sections of the rear of the units appear to be the same, the audio sections and power supplies appear to be very different. Given that both companies have the same parent company, it wouldn't surprise me if McIntosh used the Denon video section, which was excellent, and added their own analog audio and power sections to the unit so it can perform to the level that they want to to perform, and if that improves upon the Denon, that would be an excellent sounding unit.
"No disrespect, but the A1UDCI wasn't intended to be paired with a mid-range receiver that falls some way short of realising the SQ potential of even the 3800BDCI."
I wish I had a higher end receiver, or a processor and amplifier section, to use with the Denon, but with the equipment I had and was using at the time (Pioneer SC-27, which was an excellent receiver and I would highly recommend), the Denon was still superior to anything I had heard. With higher end components in the chain, I can see the performance only improving, and my recommendation only getting stronger.
Like I said in my earlier post, I realize the Denon is expensive, and more than I and most people can afford, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's a fantastically built and engineered unit, and one that I imagine many of us can wish we could have in our systems.
A variety of reviews
written by ChrisHeinonen , February 08, 2010
Robert,
In the past year I've reviewed multiple Blu-ray players: The Pioneer BDP-51FD and BDP-09FD, Panasonic BD-60, Oppo BDP-83, and this Denon DVD-A1UDCI. Two of those were pretty much entry level, mass market players, one is the most popular universal player, and the other two are reference level players, one universal and one not.
That's a variety of different levels of players, just like we have a variety of visitors that are interested in different things. I'm sure not every review will appeal to everyone, but that would be nearly impossible for anyone to do.
Some people will read this review for fun, and some people will read it with interest in purchasing the product, and I'm sure some will just choose to skip it as the product doesn't matter to them at all. It would be unfair to people that are interested in products like this, however, to never review them because many people can't afford them, and I think we try to strike a balance of different levels of equipment to review.
written by ChrisHeinonen , February 08, 2010
Robert,
In the past year I've reviewed multiple Blu-ray players: The Pioneer BDP-51FD and BDP-09FD, Panasonic BD-60, Oppo BDP-83, and this Denon DVD-A1UDCI. Two of those were pretty much entry level, mass market players, one is the most popular universal player, and the other two are reference level players, one universal and one not.
That's a variety of different levels of players, just like we have a variety of visitors that are interested in different things. I'm sure not every review will appeal to everyone, but that would be nearly impossible for anyone to do.
Some people will read this review for fun, and some people will read it with interest in purchasing the product, and I'm sure some will just choose to skip it as the product doesn't matter to them at all. It would be unfair to people that are interested in products like this, however, to never review them because many people can't afford them, and I think we try to strike a balance of different levels of equipment to review.
...
written by Willis_ , February 08, 2010
The mcintosh uses everything from the denon, same DSP, HDMI, video, DAC's, all mcintosh did was put a different face plate on it and doubled the price. What mcintosh has done to the analog/power sections is unclear but mcintosh and their dealers lied to their customers and said the MVP881 had no connection to the denon.
written by Willis_ , February 08, 2010
The mcintosh uses everything from the denon, same DSP, HDMI, video, DAC's, all mcintosh did was put a different face plate on it and doubled the price. What mcintosh has done to the analog/power sections is unclear but mcintosh and their dealers lied to their customers and said the MVP881 had no connection to the denon.
MVP881
written by ChrisHeinonen , February 08, 2010
Willis,
I didn't mention the MVP881 in my review, or compare the Denon to it at all, nor have I seen or used that player, as I'm guessing you have not either. Also, given that you and everyone else seems to have no idea about the components and engineering of the device, comments about that can probably wait until if/when someone here reviews that device, as then they might know more about it.
I've only seen their press release about it and nothing more, and since it doesn't relate to the discussion of this Denon (or the Marantz Blu-ray player) I don't see a reason to discuss it, especially not knowing all the details about it.
written by ChrisHeinonen , February 08, 2010
Willis,
I didn't mention the MVP881 in my review, or compare the Denon to it at all, nor have I seen or used that player, as I'm guessing you have not either. Also, given that you and everyone else seems to have no idea about the components and engineering of the device, comments about that can probably wait until if/when someone here reviews that device, as then they might know more about it.
I've only seen their press release about it and nothing more, and since it doesn't relate to the discussion of this Denon (or the Marantz Blu-ray player) I don't see a reason to discuss it, especially not knowing all the details about it.
Well put it Chris
written by Robert , February 08, 2010
Hi Chris,
Thank you for the smart response. I agree with you, and I apologise for being so radical in my prior comment.
As we advance furher in this passion of ours, the doors of good sense are widening. Money for some have a different value, but the money spent remains the same.
And now that we are in the year 2010, and with all the great info (and less great too) we have from the internet, value is taking it's true meaning.
I guess that's all I really meant.
Cheers Chris & I do appreciate the work you do,
Robert
written by Robert , February 08, 2010
Hi Chris,
Thank you for the smart response. I agree with you, and I apologise for being so radical in my prior comment.
As we advance furher in this passion of ours, the doors of good sense are widening. Money for some have a different value, but the money spent remains the same.
And now that we are in the year 2010, and with all the great info (and less great too) we have from the internet, value is taking it's true meaning.
I guess that's all I really meant.
Cheers Chris & I do appreciate the work you do,
Robert
Willis
written by Piero , February 09, 2010
And other than your conjecture, explain how you know all this? And I’ll accept your answer if you tell me you’ve purchased both and taken them apart. Because I’m quite certain you didn’t get all your information from reading all those other misinformed souls out there ready to bash anything they can..
written by Piero , February 09, 2010
And other than your conjecture, explain how you know all this? And I’ll accept your answer if you tell me you’ve purchased both and taken them apart. Because I’m quite certain you didn’t get all your information from reading all those other misinformed souls out there ready to bash anything they can..
Show me the money!
written by Jmilton7043 , February 09, 2010
It is true that I can not afford a BMW....but it does not mean that I don't like reading about them. Thanks for the review!
written by Jmilton7043 , February 09, 2010
It is true that I can not afford a BMW....but it does not mean that I don't like reading about them. Thanks for the review!
...
written by Willis_ , February 09, 2010
Are you people now saying that the MVP881 doe not run the same DSP, digital, HDMI, DAC's as the denon? You are mistaken since the information is there and very obvious. The "changes" to the analog and power sections are irrelevant since that will not affect the HDMI performance.
http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/images/products/mvp888-back-l.jpg
Here is the back and those sctions I mentioned are 100% the same as the denon.
written by Willis_ , February 09, 2010
Are you people now saying that the MVP881 doe not run the same DSP, digital, HDMI, DAC's as the denon? You are mistaken since the information is there and very obvious. The "changes" to the analog and power sections are irrelevant since that will not affect the HDMI performance.
http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/images/products/mvp888-back-l.jpg
Here is the back and those sctions I mentioned are 100% the same as the denon.
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CAVE Prize - Burson Audio PI-100 Integrated Stereo Amplifier
SECRETS of Home Theater - Monday, 01 February 2010
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SECRETS of Home Theater - Monday, 01 February 2010
If you didn’t win the prizes for our first CAVE contest – and that means all of you except two – don’t despair. We are now announcing the next CAVE contest, and the prize is a Burson Audio PI-100 Integrated Stereo Amplifier.
Comments (1)
All discreet......
written by Tim , February 03, 2010
I've been eyeing this product for some time now and after reading the glowing review by Dr. Groppi on the the integrated and Srajan's rave review on the
Burson headphone amp, my appetite is whetted, and then some. It seems to be a step backwards to design and assemble something in an all discreet fashion, what with the labour intensive manner in building it, but the payoff seems to be in the end product: superlative sound. I, for one, would like to get my hands on this beautiful, minimalist integrated.
written by Tim , February 03, 2010
I've been eyeing this product for some time now and after reading the glowing review by Dr. Groppi on the the integrated and Srajan's rave review on the
Burson headphone amp, my appetite is whetted, and then some. It seems to be a step backwards to design and assemble something in an all discreet fashion, what with the labour intensive manner in building it, but the payoff seems to be in the end product: superlative sound. I, for one, would like to get my hands on this beautiful, minimalist integrated.
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Canton GLE 5.1 Speaker System
Jim Clements - Monday, 01 February 2010
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Jim Clements - Monday, 01 February 2010
This 5.1 speaker system by Canton hails from Germany, a country famous for the design and manufacturing of all manner of precision products: cars, medical devices, tools, and so forth. So I was really looking forward to seeing if the German engineering, manufacturing and QA/QC tradition would benefit this speaker system.
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Samsung SP-A900B Single-Chip 1080p DLP Projector
Chris Eberle - Thursday, 28 January 2010
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Chris Eberle - Thursday, 28 January 2010
What if a videophile were given total control over the design, production and distribution of a projector? You would expect a high degree of color accuracy, great optics, easy calibration for different screens and environments, no unnecessary features, consistent quality and of course a stunning image. Samsung has answered this question with the help of Joe Kane. The result of this collaboration has been a series of DLP projectors, the latest example being the SP-A900B.
Comments (10)
Value
written by ratfink , January 30, 2010
First, I just had a look at this review. Terrific projector.
And, while I am not a projector guy, I do have some valid input.
As a photographer, 13000$ buys a LOT of lens. Likewise, I'd expect a projector at this price level to have a 3 chip system.
Color accuracy / color space / gamma and all can be had a a much lower price point. Or should, anyway. For this kind of money, I'd expect an ISF guy to show up within a couple weeks for cal.
written by ratfink , January 30, 2010
First, I just had a look at this review. Terrific projector.
And, while I am not a projector guy, I do have some valid input.
As a photographer, 13000$ buys a LOT of lens. Likewise, I'd expect a projector at this price level to have a 3 chip system.
Color accuracy / color space / gamma and all can be had a a much lower price point. Or should, anyway. For this kind of money, I'd expect an ISF guy to show up within a couple weeks for cal.
value
written by ratfink , January 30, 2010
Why isn't this a 3-chip design? For that money I'd demand it.
As for Premium Optics, 13 large goes a LONG way in the world of photography.
written by ratfink , January 30, 2010
Why isn't this a 3-chip design? For that money I'd demand it.
As for Premium Optics, 13 large goes a LONG way in the world of photography.
...
written by Chris Eberle , January 31, 2010
According to my information, these projectors do include onsite calibration. They are bench calibrated by DVD Distribution then tweaked onsite by the installer.
As for 3-chip vs 1-chip, I don't know of any 3-chip projectors that are as low as $13,000. The A900 is in a middle ground pricewise. Yes there are comparable models for less money but there are also comparable models for more money.
written by Chris Eberle , January 31, 2010
According to my information, these projectors do include onsite calibration. They are bench calibrated by DVD Distribution then tweaked onsite by the installer.
As for 3-chip vs 1-chip, I don't know of any 3-chip projectors that are as low as $13,000. The A900 is in a middle ground pricewise. Yes there are comparable models for less money but there are also comparable models for more money.
...
written by Chris Eberle , January 31, 2010
Another note about the Samsung's accuracy: Yes I have measured the same results from other projectors. But no unit I've had in my theater was as easy to calibrate. Nailing the color gamut literally took me less than 30 minutes. I only had to take one set of measurements and the other gamuts were calculated for me. This level of accuracy on other projectors can easily take me 3-4 hours to achieve.
written by Chris Eberle , January 31, 2010
Another note about the Samsung's accuracy: Yes I have measured the same results from other projectors. But no unit I've had in my theater was as easy to calibrate. Nailing the color gamut literally took me less than 30 minutes. I only had to take one set of measurements and the other gamuts were calculated for me. This level of accuracy on other projectors can easily take me 3-4 hours to achieve.
This projector
written by Piero , February 01, 2010
I've seen and watched a demo given by Joe Kane with this projector and frankly it was amazing. He addresses issues only the most discerning videophile would, including those in the industry, moviemakers.
written by Piero , February 01, 2010
I've seen and watched a demo given by Joe Kane with this projector and frankly it was amazing. He addresses issues only the most discerning videophile would, including those in the industry, moviemakers.
LED? 3 Chip?
written by JAKE , February 03, 2010
Can't wait until the 3 chip LED illuminated version.
Seriously, Joe Kane doing this with Samsung is a dream come true.
Bur it's just too expensive for what you get relative to the other stuff out there.
Rainbows for 13K? No thank you
Who's going to be the first to introduce a 10K projector with 3 chips?
Hopefully Samsung and Joe.
written by JAKE , February 03, 2010
Can't wait until the 3 chip LED illuminated version.
Seriously, Joe Kane doing this with Samsung is a dream come true.
Bur it's just too expensive for what you get relative to the other stuff out there.
Rainbows for 13K? No thank you
Who's going to be the first to introduce a 10K projector with 3 chips?
Hopefully Samsung and Joe.
...
written by Chris Eberle , February 05, 2010
An LED-lit projector would have no need for a 3-chip system. The LED light source is actually three emitters using colored filters to create the primaries. A single-chip design has the advantage of zero convergence error.
Most of the major projector manufacturers rolled out LED models at CEDIA. I hope to get one in soon for testing.
written by Chris Eberle , February 05, 2010
An LED-lit projector would have no need for a 3-chip system. The LED light source is actually three emitters using colored filters to create the primaries. A single-chip design has the advantage of zero convergence error.
Most of the major projector manufacturers rolled out LED models at CEDIA. I hope to get one in soon for testing.
...
written by mark haflich , February 06, 2010
While 3 chip Dila and LCR chip machines are available for well under $10K, the cheapest 3 chip DLP machine has a MSRP of about $36K and does not have a lens of the quality in the Samsung. The costs charged by TI for the chips and license and the high cost of the lens would keep the MSRP of any Samsung 3 chip machine well above $10K and I would expect close to $30K. Will Samsung ever build such a machine? I doubt it. Samsung is primarily interested in selling quantity. I think the next Joe Kane Samsung will be something capable of doing 3D from a single one chip machine.
written by mark haflich , February 06, 2010
While 3 chip Dila and LCR chip machines are available for well under $10K, the cheapest 3 chip DLP machine has a MSRP of about $36K and does not have a lens of the quality in the Samsung. The costs charged by TI for the chips and license and the high cost of the lens would keep the MSRP of any Samsung 3 chip machine well above $10K and I would expect close to $30K. Will Samsung ever build such a machine? I doubt it. Samsung is primarily interested in selling quantity. I think the next Joe Kane Samsung will be something capable of doing 3D from a single one chip machine.
The case for the Single Chip design
written by Tom , February 07, 2010
You will look long and hard for a PJ that produces a sharper image. Part of the reason is that it IS a single chip. There can be no convergence issues with a single chip design.
You pick your "poison" (some "rainbows") and takes your chances.(Phenomenal definition)
Personally, the "rainbow" issue with this PJ is quite slight. Now, while some may find it a greater issue, no viewer of the output from thisunit has failed to be less than awed by the "looking out an open window" character of properly transferred material.
written by Tom , February 07, 2010
You will look long and hard for a PJ that produces a sharper image. Part of the reason is that it IS a single chip. There can be no convergence issues with a single chip design.
You pick your "poison" (some "rainbows") and takes your chances.(Phenomenal definition)
Personally, the "rainbow" issue with this PJ is quite slight. Now, while some may find it a greater issue, no viewer of the output from thisunit has failed to be less than awed by the "looking out an open window" character of properly transferred material.
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Panasonic BD-60 Blu-ray Player
Chris Heinonen and Adrian Wittenberg - Tuesday, 26 January 2010
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Chris Heinonen and Adrian Wittenberg - Tuesday, 26 January 2010
Panasonic has a long tradition of producing well regarded, competitively priced disc players. Many of their DVD players were among the best at producing a 480p image, and at a very reasonable cost. Panasonic was at it again with Blu-ray, being one of the main companies out there with a large line of affordable players for consumers, with some extra features that other companies don't include.
Comments (11)
MSRP
written by ChrisHeinonen , January 26, 2010
The current MSRP from Panasonic is $199.95. It should be in the data box on the front page but must have been cut off.
written by ChrisHeinonen , January 26, 2010
The current MSRP from Panasonic is $199.95. It should be in the data box on the front page but must have been cut off.
This player will not work with HDMI baluns in the video path
written by FRR , January 26, 2010
As the title says, this player will not work with HDMI in the video. In several of my installations I've had HDMI baluns in the video path between the surround receiver and the display device. After spending countless hours trying to understand the problem it's clear that Panasonic has done something to make this device not fully HDMI compliant. Replacing the baluns (tried several different brands of Baluns, not cheap stuff either)didn't solve the problem. In one installation I was able to run a HDMI cable to the display device, in the other installations I was not able to replace the baluns as the cabling had to run through a return air plenum which required a FT6 rated cable.
Replacing the Panasonic player with a different Blu-Ray player solved the problem.
Panasonic's response to the problems was to say that their Blu-Ray players were meant to only work with HDMI cables, which is a big pile crap. HDMI is a physical interface which quality HDMI baluns are capable of duplicating and the real problem is in the implementation the HDCP protocol and some cost cutting by Panasonic.
written by FRR , January 26, 2010
As the title says, this player will not work with HDMI in the video. In several of my installations I've had HDMI baluns in the video path between the surround receiver and the display device. After spending countless hours trying to understand the problem it's clear that Panasonic has done something to make this device not fully HDMI compliant. Replacing the baluns (tried several different brands of Baluns, not cheap stuff either)didn't solve the problem. In one installation I was able to run a HDMI cable to the display device, in the other installations I was not able to replace the baluns as the cabling had to run through a return air plenum which required a FT6 rated cable.
Replacing the Panasonic player with a different Blu-Ray player solved the problem.
Panasonic's response to the problems was to say that their Blu-Ray players were meant to only work with HDMI cables, which is a big pile crap. HDMI is a physical interface which quality HDMI baluns are capable of duplicating and the real problem is in the implementation the HDCP protocol and some cost cutting by Panasonic.
Problems with the BD-60
written by B. King , January 26, 2010
I couldn't get my deck to play the movies! It would play all the previews but when it got to the main feature, pressing the "play" button either on the remote or deck itself did nothing. Panasonic technical service was no help in solving the problem. I have since returned the BD-60 for another brand.
written by B. King , January 26, 2010
I couldn't get my deck to play the movies! It would play all the previews but when it got to the main feature, pressing the "play" button either on the remote or deck itself did nothing. Panasonic technical service was no help in solving the problem. I have since returned the BD-60 for another brand.
Panasonic vs Oppo
written by FM , January 26, 2010
It would be great if you could do a comparison of how the Oppo BDP-83 compared to the deficiencies of this Panasonic.
Also, I'm looking forward to your review of the Oppo BDP-80.
written by FM , January 26, 2010
It would be great if you could do a comparison of how the Oppo BDP-83 compared to the deficiencies of this Panasonic.
Also, I'm looking forward to your review of the Oppo BDP-80.
BD-60 vs Oppo
written by ChrisHeinonen , January 26, 2010
I have the Oppo BDP-83 as my Blu-ray player, and reviewed the BD-60 here. The Oppo is quicker to load, and can play back DVD-Audio and SACD discs as well, which the Panasonic can not. However, the Panasonic does have some online features (YouTube, Picasa) that the Oppo lacks, and it retails for over $300 less. The DVD upscaling is better on the Oppo, but you might not notice unless you have a large projector.
For myself, who has a large collection of SACD's and DVD-A discs, and wants a single machine that's as good as you can get for speed, the Oppo is the easy choice. For someone that's going to connect the machines digitally (HDMI for audio and video, or HDMI for video and optical for audio) and only wants to watch movies, without caring about high resolution audio formats being a bit slower to load, you'd be incredibly hard pressed to see a difference between the two machines watching a Blu-ray movie.
written by ChrisHeinonen , January 26, 2010
I have the Oppo BDP-83 as my Blu-ray player, and reviewed the BD-60 here. The Oppo is quicker to load, and can play back DVD-Audio and SACD discs as well, which the Panasonic can not. However, the Panasonic does have some online features (YouTube, Picasa) that the Oppo lacks, and it retails for over $300 less. The DVD upscaling is better on the Oppo, but you might not notice unless you have a large projector.
For myself, who has a large collection of SACD's and DVD-A discs, and wants a single machine that's as good as you can get for speed, the Oppo is the easy choice. For someone that's going to connect the machines digitally (HDMI for audio and video, or HDMI for video and optical for audio) and only wants to watch movies, without caring about high resolution audio formats being a bit slower to load, you'd be incredibly hard pressed to see a difference between the two machines watching a Blu-ray movie.
DMP BD 60 ISSUES
written by TXFlyGuy , January 27, 2010
I have a problem with lip sync. The connection is HDMI for video, and optical for audio. My pre-amp processor does not have lip-sync adjustment capability. This same problem has been reported by other users of the Panasonic. I never had this issue with the Sony which was replaced by the BD60.
written by TXFlyGuy , January 27, 2010
I have a problem with lip sync. The connection is HDMI for video, and optical for audio. My pre-amp processor does not have lip-sync adjustment capability. This same problem has been reported by other users of the Panasonic. I never had this issue with the Sony which was replaced by the BD60.
$139
written by geok , January 27, 2010
My wife purchased this one for me at Christmas for $139 from Amazon.com. Price has since dropped to $119. If it reviewed as a good deal at $199, it's ridiculous at this price. You could get one for the bedroom or kitchen for that matter.
written by geok , January 27, 2010
My wife purchased this one for me at Christmas for $139 from Amazon.com. Price has since dropped to $119. If it reviewed as a good deal at $199, it's ridiculous at this price. You could get one for the bedroom or kitchen for that matter.
...
written by XEagleDriver , January 27, 2010
Good review, thanks. However, I have one point of contention.
From the review: ". . . have the player decode TrueHD and DTS-MA HD and send it as PCM, instead of bitstreaming. . . the only drawback you will have is the lack of a TrueHD or DTS-MA HD light on your receiver, but you gain better support for alternate audio tracks on the Blu-ray and potentially room correction on your receiver."
Really? I find it surprising that any AVR current enough to decode TrueHD and DTS-MA would not be able of applying room correction to the bitstream after internal decoding by the AVR.
written by XEagleDriver , January 27, 2010
Good review, thanks. However, I have one point of contention.
From the review: ". . . have the player decode TrueHD and DTS-MA HD and send it as PCM, instead of bitstreaming. . . the only drawback you will have is the lack of a TrueHD or DTS-MA HD light on your receiver, but you gain better support for alternate audio tracks on the Blu-ray and potentially room correction on your receiver."
Really? I find it surprising that any AVR current enough to decode TrueHD and DTS-MA would not be able of applying room correction to the bitstream after internal decoding by the AVR.
BD60 = BD605 at Costco
written by Fletcher , January 27, 2010
Same player with different model number but including an HDMI cable has been $130 at Costco.
written by Fletcher , January 27, 2010
Same player with different model number but including an HDMI cable has been $130 at Costco.
Room Correction and Bitstreams
written by ChrisHeinonen , January 28, 2010
XEagleDriver,
There are many receivers and processors out there and shipping now, and I've reviewed at least one, that don't have the CPU power to do decoding of a bitstream and room correction at the same time. Additionally, some receivers and processors will have sampling rate limits on what material they can apply room correction to that will vary based on if it's a bitstream or if it is a PCM signal (ex. a 24/48 max for bitstream, but 24/192 for PCM).
Additionally, some of the sounds from Blu-ray titles, such as menu effects or PIP commentary, are mixed as secondary audio tracks, and if you are bitstreaming a lossless codec instead of doing internal decoding to PCM, many of these sounds may not play for you.
I've found that it's just best to set the Blu-ray player to PCM if it can decode the signal internally, as it prevents these issues from coming into play, and I don't need to see the TrueHD or DTS-HD MA light on my receiver.
written by ChrisHeinonen , January 28, 2010
XEagleDriver,
There are many receivers and processors out there and shipping now, and I've reviewed at least one, that don't have the CPU power to do decoding of a bitstream and room correction at the same time. Additionally, some receivers and processors will have sampling rate limits on what material they can apply room correction to that will vary based on if it's a bitstream or if it is a PCM signal (ex. a 24/48 max for bitstream, but 24/192 for PCM).
Additionally, some of the sounds from Blu-ray titles, such as menu effects or PIP commentary, are mixed as secondary audio tracks, and if you are bitstreaming a lossless codec instead of doing internal decoding to PCM, many of these sounds may not play for you.
I've found that it's just best to set the Blu-ray player to PCM if it can decode the signal internally, as it prevents these issues from coming into play, and I don't need to see the TrueHD or DTS-HD MA light on my receiver.
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OPPO BDP-83SE (Special Edition) Universal Blu-ray Player
John E. Johnson, Jr. - Monday, 25 January 2010
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John E. Johnson, Jr. - Monday, 25 January 2010
OPPO's BDP-83 Universal Blu-ray Player has been very successful, as it is one of only a few players that will ouput all codecs (CD, DVD-A, SACD, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio) in digital format through an HDMI connection. Now, with the Special Edition of this player, analog audio performance is improved significantly, and in fact, performs like players costing much, much more.
Comments (30)
...
written by Willis345 , January 25, 2010
Too bad lexi"con" did not rebadge this one, then again this goes for theta digital and ayre. The new ayre DX-5 is $10,000 and it does not even use a 32 bit DAC.
written by Willis345 , January 25, 2010
Too bad lexi"con" did not rebadge this one, then again this goes for theta digital and ayre. The new ayre DX-5 is $10,000 and it does not even use a 32 bit DAC.
Oppo Blu-ray Players
written by Josh DeBoer , January 25, 2010
Thanks for the review. We have been waiting to get a quality review on the SE unit and it sounds like a winner indeed.
written by Josh DeBoer , January 25, 2010
Thanks for the review. We have been waiting to get a quality review on the SE unit and it sounds like a winner indeed.
hdmi
written by VladP , January 25, 2010
Any comments on how the standard bdp-83 compares to SE via digital (HDMI, coax)?
written by VladP , January 25, 2010
Any comments on how the standard bdp-83 compares to SE via digital (HDMI, coax)?
OPPO blu-ray
written by J.D. Gamez , January 25, 2010
I have hear nothing but, good things about this player. And for that kind of price, it's a steal. Pioneer,Marantz,Denon, have universal players costing a lot more. OPPO is a winner.
written by J.D. Gamez , January 25, 2010
I have hear nothing but, good things about this player. And for that kind of price, it's a steal. Pioneer,Marantz,Denon, have universal players costing a lot more. OPPO is a winner.
crossover
written by funboy , January 25, 2010
You forgot to measure the crossover slopes and frequency - if people are going to use the analog outputs, they may want to use the bass management as well so there is no ADC in their processor / pre-amp. I've heard the crossover slopes and frequency on this unit is arbritary and just plain wrong while every other aspect of this product is amazing.
written by funboy , January 25, 2010
You forgot to measure the crossover slopes and frequency - if people are going to use the analog outputs, they may want to use the bass management as well so there is no ADC in their processor / pre-amp. I've heard the crossover slopes and frequency on this unit is arbritary and just plain wrong while every other aspect of this product is amazing.
Incomplete review
written by Robert , January 25, 2010
I found the review lacking on what is the most important part of this new player, it's analog outputs and bass management for it.
Is it missing because something's wrong with it?
written by Robert , January 25, 2010
I found the review lacking on what is the most important part of this new player, it's analog outputs and bass management for it.
Is it missing because something's wrong with it?
WIFI?
written by TXFlyGuy , January 26, 2010
When is this unit going to have built in wifi? That's the only thing that keeps me from buying it today.
written by TXFlyGuy , January 26, 2010
When is this unit going to have built in wifi? That's the only thing that keeps me from buying it today.
...
written by JEJ , January 26, 2010
Less subjectivity? I think you have your words mixed up. This review is almost entirely objective.
written by JEJ , January 26, 2010
Less subjectivity? I think you have your words mixed up. This review is almost entirely objective.
...
written by JEJ , January 26, 2010
. . . Any comments on how the standard bdp-83 compares to SE via digital (HDMI, coax)? . . .
Only the analog stages were changed in this player. The HDMI and digital coax outputs are unchanged.
written by JEJ , January 26, 2010
. . . Any comments on how the standard bdp-83 compares to SE via digital (HDMI, coax)? . . .
Only the analog stages were changed in this player. The HDMI and digital coax outputs are unchanged.
...
written by JEJ , January 26, 2010
The BDP-83SE, like the BDP-83, does have Ethernet for downloading firmware updates, but it is not wireless. However, OPPO does sell a wireless adapter for the players:
http://www.oppodigital.com/wireless-bridge-kit-WBK1/
written by JEJ , January 26, 2010
The BDP-83SE, like the BDP-83, does have Ethernet for downloading firmware updates, but it is not wireless. However, OPPO does sell a wireless adapter for the players:
http://www.oppodigital.com/wireless-bridge-kit-WBK1/
...
written by JEJ , January 26, 2010
Regarding the bass management, you have a choice of setting speakers to "Large" or "Small". If set to Small, it should cross over at 80 Hz (the THX spec), but apparently, the BDP-83 does not do it exactly at that frequency. I have not tested the BDP-83SE to see if it has changed. I will get around to doing that and will add the graphs.
written by JEJ , January 26, 2010
Regarding the bass management, you have a choice of setting speakers to "Large" or "Small". If set to Small, it should cross over at 80 Hz (the THX spec), but apparently, the BDP-83 does not do it exactly at that frequency. I have not tested the BDP-83SE to see if it has changed. I will get around to doing that and will add the graphs.
Comparison
written by Russ , January 26, 2010
Again for us less-informed. The main differenced between the SE and the regular are what (besides a fre hundred dollars)?? Spell it out. Thanks!!
written by Russ , January 26, 2010
Again for us less-informed. The main differenced between the SE and the regular are what (besides a fre hundred dollars)?? Spell it out. Thanks!!
...
written by Willis345 , January 26, 2010
It's strange that even in this day and age people are still not using a digital connection? Why are these people not upgrading? I can see some staying away from HDMI but SPDIF, come on?
written by Willis345 , January 26, 2010
It's strange that even in this day and age people are still not using a digital connection? Why are these people not upgrading? I can see some staying away from HDMI but SPDIF, come on?
Strictly for home theater use and 7.1 analog out question:
written by HT Guy , January 26, 2010
If one is only using this player for home theater purposes, via 7.1 analog outs, will one notice the difference as compared to the orginal version? How about as compared the new lower end verion that should be released very soon?
I am imputting the 7.1 outs into my Lexicon MC-12B.
written by HT Guy , January 26, 2010
If one is only using this player for home theater purposes, via 7.1 analog outs, will one notice the difference as compared to the orginal version? How about as compared the new lower end verion that should be released very soon?
I am imputting the 7.1 outs into my Lexicon MC-12B.
...
written by dan88 , January 26, 2010
written by JEJ , January 26, 2010
"Less subjectivity? I think you have your words mixed up. This review is almost entirely objective."
well duh!
written by dan88 , January 26, 2010
written by JEJ , January 26, 2010
"Less subjectivity? I think you have your words mixed up. This review is almost entirely objective."
well duh!
Why analog?
written by Ron , January 26, 2010
I use my BDP-83 analog out to my tube preamp then my amp then speakers. I like the secondary harmonics, especially with poorly recorded music. Female voices just seem more tangible and not so sterile.
I do run the optical out to my receiver for movies and the HDMI to my plasma display. Depending on what we want from our systems the complexity can be daunting.
Ron
written by Ron , January 26, 2010
I use my BDP-83 analog out to my tube preamp then my amp then speakers. I like the secondary harmonics, especially with poorly recorded music. Female voices just seem more tangible and not so sterile.
I do run the optical out to my receiver for movies and the HDMI to my plasma display. Depending on what we want from our systems the complexity can be daunting.
Ron
Oppo Differences
written by ChrisHeinonen , January 26, 2010
The only differences in the SE versus the standard 83 are in the analog section. It uses Sabre DAC's for the 7.1 and 2.0 analog outputs instead of the previous DAC's, and also it includes the RS-232 port that was an option previously.
As far as not using digital, some people have spent a lot of money on equipment that might not have HDMI, and upgrading to some as good would be cost prohibitive if they can spend $300 more to get a Blu-ray player with high quality analog outputs. Additionally, SPDIF and Toslink only support a bandwidth of 1.5 Mbit/sec, which is not nearly enough for TrueHD, DTS-MA, or any of the other new codecs, so your analog outputs would be far higher quality.
written by ChrisHeinonen , January 26, 2010
The only differences in the SE versus the standard 83 are in the analog section. It uses Sabre DAC's for the 7.1 and 2.0 analog outputs instead of the previous DAC's, and also it includes the RS-232 port that was an option previously.
As far as not using digital, some people have spent a lot of money on equipment that might not have HDMI, and upgrading to some as good would be cost prohibitive if they can spend $300 more to get a Blu-ray player with high quality analog outputs. Additionally, SPDIF and Toslink only support a bandwidth of 1.5 Mbit/sec, which is not nearly enough for TrueHD, DTS-MA, or any of the other new codecs, so your analog outputs would be far higher quality.
Oppo BDP
written by JA , January 26, 2010
I am one of the few people who have written about why I sold my Oppo BDP-83. A friend and me did an exact A-B comparison between my old Oppo 83 and his Sony PS3 for blu-ray, and his Arcam DV139 for DVD. The Arcam blew away the Oppo in DVD PQ and audio over analog and HDMI. And the Sony was just as good in blu-ray PQ. By no means am I saying the Oppo is not a great player, it obviously is. However, with my tests, it did not prove to me to be any better than the Sonys, Panasonics and Marantz's that I have tested over 1 year. Another thing the average Joe does not realize is, just because a deck has the newest and greatest audio/video chips, does not mean it will automatically have the best PQ and audio. I bought a 6 month old Marantz BD8002. It does not load as fast as the Oppo, but it has a more "organic" and life like picture in BD and DVD to my eyes.
written by JA , January 26, 2010
I am one of the few people who have written about why I sold my Oppo BDP-83. A friend and me did an exact A-B comparison between my old Oppo 83 and his Sony PS3 for blu-ray, and his Arcam DV139 for DVD. The Arcam blew away the Oppo in DVD PQ and audio over analog and HDMI. And the Sony was just as good in blu-ray PQ. By no means am I saying the Oppo is not a great player, it obviously is. However, with my tests, it did not prove to me to be any better than the Sonys, Panasonics and Marantz's that I have tested over 1 year. Another thing the average Joe does not realize is, just because a deck has the newest and greatest audio/video chips, does not mean it will automatically have the best PQ and audio. I bought a 6 month old Marantz BD8002. It does not load as fast as the Oppo, but it has a more "organic" and life like picture in BD and DVD to my eyes.
...
written by JEJ , January 27, 2010
dan88 wrote:
written by JEJ , January 26, 2010
"Less subjectivity? I think you have your words mixed up. This review is almost entirely objective."
well duh!
End quote . . .
Ah, a joke then. You got me.
written by JEJ , January 27, 2010
dan88 wrote:
written by JEJ , January 26, 2010
"Less subjectivity? I think you have your words mixed up. This review is almost entirely objective."
well duh!
End quote . . .
Ah, a joke then. You got me.
...
written by Willis345 , January 27, 2010
So you are saying that these same people are not interested in "high end"? Or have these same people done their research and found high end audio to be a scam hence sticking with their current equipment?
Even thoe the arcam uses a lesser video processor? Sorry buddy but this day and age the video processor makes all the difference. So how did arcam make a lesser video processor performe better then one with superior specs? Magic?
written by Willis345 , January 27, 2010
ChrisHeinonen
As far as not using digital, some people have spent a lot of money on equipment that might not have HDMI, and upgrading to some as good would be cost prohibitive if they can spend $300 more to get a Blu-ray player with high quality analog outputs. Additionally, SPDIF and Toslink only support a bandwidth of 1.5 Mbit/sec, which is not nearly enough for TrueHD, DTS-MA, or any of the other new codecs, so your analog outputs would be far higher quality.
So you are saying that these same people are not interested in "high end"? Or have these same people done their research and found high end audio to be a scam hence sticking with their current equipment?
JA
I am one of the few people who have written about why I sold my Oppo BDP-83. A friend and me did an exact A-B comparison between my old Oppo 83 and his Sony PS3 for blu-ray, and his Arcam DV139 for DVD. The Arcam blew away the Oppo in DVD PQ and audio over analog and HDMI.
Even thoe the arcam uses a lesser video processor? Sorry buddy but this day and age the video processor makes all the difference. So how did arcam make a lesser video processor performe better then one with superior specs? Magic?
Upgrading and the High End
written by ChrisHeinonen , January 27, 2010
"So you are saying that these same people are not interested in "high end"? Or have these same people done their research and found high end audio to be a scam hence sticking with their current equipment?"
No, that's not at all what I am saying. I am saying that if I bought a top of the line processor a while ago that sounds amazing, works perfectly, and possibly cost me a lot of money (Say, something really nice from Theta, or Anthem, or Classe), but it lacks HDMI, then I might not be ready to spend the money to upgrade again right now.
If I could spend an extra $400 on my Blu-ray player to get one that has a high quality DAC on the analog outputs, allowing me to use my existing gear that likely has a multi-channel input to get the benefit of the new lossless codecs, and not have to spend thousands to upgrade to a similar quality processor with HDMI, then I would do that.
In no way did I say that high end equipment was a scam, or high end audio as a whole, as that would be a ridiculous thing for me to say as don't believe that.
written by ChrisHeinonen , January 27, 2010
"So you are saying that these same people are not interested in "high end"? Or have these same people done their research and found high end audio to be a scam hence sticking with their current equipment?"
No, that's not at all what I am saying. I am saying that if I bought a top of the line processor a while ago that sounds amazing, works perfectly, and possibly cost me a lot of money (Say, something really nice from Theta, or Anthem, or Classe), but it lacks HDMI, then I might not be ready to spend the money to upgrade again right now.
If I could spend an extra $400 on my Blu-ray player to get one that has a high quality DAC on the analog outputs, allowing me to use my existing gear that likely has a multi-channel input to get the benefit of the new lossless codecs, and not have to spend thousands to upgrade to a similar quality processor with HDMI, then I would do that.
In no way did I say that high end equipment was a scam, or high end audio as a whole, as that would be a ridiculous thing for me to say as don't believe that.
...
written by Willis345 , January 28, 2010
Theta = snake oil, we have seen this before with rebadged laser disc players and their new rebadged compli blu. Anyways, you would then be using your processor as a volume control so what would be the point? Even if you think that the current processor is superior becuase of its price/name you would only be using it as a volume control and hence it would be pointless.
written by Willis345 , January 28, 2010
ChrisHeinonen
No, that's not at all what I am saying. I am saying that if I bought a top of the line processor a while ago that sounds amazing, works perfectly, and possibly cost me a lot of money (Say, something really nice from Theta, or Anthem, or Classe), but it lacks HDMI, then I might not be ready to spend the money to upgrade again right now.
If I could spend an extra $400 on my Blu-ray player to get one that has a high quality DAC on the analog outputs, allowing me to use my existing gear that likely has a multi-channel input to get the benefit of the new lossless codecs, and not have to spend thousands to upgrade to a similar quality processor with HDMI, then I would do that.
In no way did I say that high end equipment was a scam, or high end audio as a whole, as that would be a ridiculous thing for me to say as don't believe that.
Theta = snake oil, we have seen this before with rebadged laser disc players and their new rebadged compli blu. Anyways, you would then be using your processor as a volume control so what would be the point? Even if you think that the current processor is superior becuase of its price/name you would only be using it as a volume control and hence it would be pointless.
review needs rankings/comparisons to other players/SSPs
written by tinnitus , January 30, 2010
Can you flesh out this review with some comparisions with other top-of-the-line players and Surround Sound Processors?
The bottom line questions I have are is the the Oppo 83SE 'close enough' to the best that I can just buy it and be happy? Will a high end surround sound processor decoding HDMI still offer better sound or will the Oppo's Analog Multi-channel outputs suffice?
Saying the Oppo 83SE audio "rivals players well into the 3 figures ($$$)" sounds like "damning with faint praise" since the player is already at the upper 3 figures, unless I misunderstand the meaning of "3 figure range ($$$)" ???
written by tinnitus , January 30, 2010
Can you flesh out this review with some comparisions with other top-of-the-line players and Surround Sound Processors?
The bottom line questions I have are is the the Oppo 83SE 'close enough' to the best that I can just buy it and be happy? Will a high end surround sound processor decoding HDMI still offer better sound or will the Oppo's Analog Multi-channel outputs suffice?
Saying the Oppo 83SE audio "rivals players well into the 3 figures ($$$)" sounds like "damning with faint praise" since the player is already at the upper 3 figures, unless I misunderstand the meaning of "3 figure range ($$$)" ???
...
written by JEJ , January 31, 2010
The analog outputs on the BDP-83 and BDP83SE are really just for those people who don't have an SSP or receiver with an HDMI input that decodes the audio and passes the video on to the monitor output for your projector. You could use the BDP-83SE as a two-channel analog out universal player (CD, SACD, DVD-A) into a high end stereo preamplifer. But, if you have a receiver or SSP with HDMI inputs, use them rather than the analog outs of the BDP-83SE. Otherwise, you will end up having 8 RCA coax cables coming out of the BDP-83SE for 7.1 movies, and there are occasional movies with 7.1 soundtracks. The analog output stages of the SSP or receiver are the same regardless of whether you use the analog inputs or the HDMI inputs, so you might as well use the HDMI inputs. It's only if you don't have an HDMI input to connect the player to that the high quality analog outputs are useful.
written by JEJ , January 31, 2010
The analog outputs on the BDP-83 and BDP83SE are really just for those people who don't have an SSP or receiver with an HDMI input that decodes the audio and passes the video on to the monitor output for your projector. You could use the BDP-83SE as a two-channel analog out universal player (CD, SACD, DVD-A) into a high end stereo preamplifer. But, if you have a receiver or SSP with HDMI inputs, use them rather than the analog outs of the BDP-83SE. Otherwise, you will end up having 8 RCA coax cables coming out of the BDP-83SE for 7.1 movies, and there are occasional movies with 7.1 soundtracks. The analog output stages of the SSP or receiver are the same regardless of whether you use the analog inputs or the HDMI inputs, so you might as well use the HDMI inputs. It's only if you don't have an HDMI input to connect the player to that the high quality analog outputs are useful.
...
written by JEJ , January 31, 2010
Thanks for pointing out my mistake about " . . . well into three figures." The BDP-83 is, like you said, already three figures. My brain was thinking on decimal points. I changed it to read "four figures".
written by JEJ , January 31, 2010
Thanks for pointing out my mistake about " . . . well into three figures." The BDP-83 is, like you said, already three figures. My brain was thinking on decimal points. I changed it to read "four figures".
Preamp's Purpose
written by ChrisHeinonen , February 02, 2010
"Even if you think that the current processor is superior becuase of its price/name you would only be using it as a volume control and hence it would be pointless."
To many people, the ideal preamp is "A straight wire with gain", where it serves only as a volume control, adding or subtracting nothing from the sound. No coloration, no noise or interference, just taking an input, and sending it out to the amplifier at the indicated volume.
That's what I'm talking about here, and that's exactly what they would want their preamp to do with the Oppo SE signal. Don't interfere with what the DAC's in it are doing, don't add your own sonic signature, but serve as a volume control. In that case, it's not pointless, it's functioning perfectly.
written by ChrisHeinonen , February 02, 2010
"Even if you think that the current processor is superior becuase of its price/name you would only be using it as a volume control and hence it would be pointless."
To many people, the ideal preamp is "A straight wire with gain", where it serves only as a volume control, adding or subtracting nothing from the sound. No coloration, no noise or interference, just taking an input, and sending it out to the amplifier at the indicated volume.
That's what I'm talking about here, and that's exactly what they would want their preamp to do with the Oppo SE signal. Don't interfere with what the DAC's in it are doing, don't add your own sonic signature, but serve as a volume control. In that case, it's not pointless, it's functioning perfectly.
...
written by Willis_ , February 03, 2010
Really? So if these high end processors do not add anything and are very basic in their design and construction why then would the price be so high?
written by Willis_ , February 03, 2010
Really? So if these high end processors do not add anything and are very basic in their design and construction why then would the price be so high?
Universal players and Blu-Ray.
written by AlanG , February 09, 2010
From what I have been reading. It seems that music on multi channel blu-ray disc sound far better than the two channels we are used to.
My question why don't we start pushing the record labels to start mixing all music in blu-ray multi-channel format.
With all the universal players avaiable. You can still enjoy your old CD's. And the even better sounds of the multi-channel format.
written by AlanG , February 09, 2010
From what I have been reading. It seems that music on multi channel blu-ray disc sound far better than the two channels we are used to.
My question why don't we start pushing the record labels to start mixing all music in blu-ray multi-channel format.
With all the universal players avaiable. You can still enjoy your old CD's. And the even better sounds of the multi-channel format.
...
written by JEJ , February 09, 2010
Yes, multi-channel music is fantastic. Not only do you get 5 discrete channels, but the sampling is higher as well. The soundstage is something that two-channel simply cannot deliver, no matter how you arrange the speakers. I have heard 5.1 on Blu-ray at 24 bit 192 kHz sampling, and the sound is just beyond description. But, I don't think we will see a lot of multi-channel music on Blu-ray because the market is not big enough. Not yet anyway. What we will get are websites that sell you the high resolution music via download. Such sites already exist but the music is two-channel and you can only play it from your hard drive on your computer. There will need to be technology developed so we can download 5.1 high resolution music albums and burn them to a Blu-ray disc. The price of blank recordable Blu-ray media has dropped considerably in the last year. You can now get recordable Blu-ray discs for about $1.30 each, and I suspect the price will go even lower as more and more consumers get Blu-ray drives that record. Maybe $0.75/disc within two years.
Multi-channel SACDs continue to be produced and marketed even though some pundits say that the format is dying. Well, it is not dying. It is alive and very healthy. Go to acousticsounds dot com and click on the SACD button. Browse their SACD catalog of more than 3,000 titles. It used to be mostly classical music, and pop music was on DVD-A, but now I see pop titles starting to appear on SACD. Most of it is multi-channel.
written by JEJ , February 09, 2010
Yes, multi-channel music is fantastic. Not only do you get 5 discrete channels, but the sampling is higher as well. The soundstage is something that two-channel simply cannot deliver, no matter how you arrange the speakers. I have heard 5.1 on Blu-ray at 24 bit 192 kHz sampling, and the sound is just beyond description. But, I don't think we will see a lot of multi-channel music on Blu-ray because the market is not big enough. Not yet anyway. What we will get are websites that sell you the high resolution music via download. Such sites already exist but the music is two-channel and you can only play it from your hard drive on your computer. There will need to be technology developed so we can download 5.1 high resolution music albums and burn them to a Blu-ray disc. The price of blank recordable Blu-ray media has dropped considerably in the last year. You can now get recordable Blu-ray discs for about $1.30 each, and I suspect the price will go even lower as more and more consumers get Blu-ray drives that record. Maybe $0.75/disc within two years.
Multi-channel SACDs continue to be produced and marketed even though some pundits say that the format is dying. Well, it is not dying. It is alive and very healthy. Go to acousticsounds dot com and click on the SACD button. Browse their SACD catalog of more than 3,000 titles. It used to be mostly classical music, and pop music was on DVD-A, but now I see pop titles starting to appear on SACD. Most of it is multi-channel.
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Mirage MX 5.1 Speaker System
Richard Stevens - Thursday, 21 January 2010
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Richard Stevens - Thursday, 21 January 2010
I’ve always been intrigued by Mirage speakers. Their brand and styling are unmistakable. Having never owned a pair and only partaking in a few brief demos, I was eager to spend some time with the MX 5.1 speaker system. I knew the MX speaker system was compact but when the shipping company arrived with a box that was smaller in diameter than my reference subwoofer I started to feel a little disenchanted.
Comments (1)
Is this a good place to start with room to grow?
written by Cesar , January 30, 2010
I gather from your review that this would do fine in a home theater setup for a relatively modest cost.
It seems to me that the next step in getting closer to the big speaker experience you speak of is to upgrade the front speakers to a much larger pair and thus go from 5.1 to 7.1.
This is precisely what I intend to do. Start with a decent 5.1 and later when funds permit, insert a pair of front speakers. Now I could keep Mirage and insert one of their fine towers. That would probably be ideal.
But for years I have been in love with the sound of Martin Logan Electrostatics. I could not possibly afford a full blown 7.1 with only Martin Logan. But how would it be if I placed the Vistas as my main speaker and surrounded with Omnisats?
Given the openness of these speakers, would it be a better fit than some traditional boxed design like Polk or Definitive Technologies?
Have you done something similar?
written by Cesar , January 30, 2010
I gather from your review that this would do fine in a home theater setup for a relatively modest cost.
It seems to me that the next step in getting closer to the big speaker experience you speak of is to upgrade the front speakers to a much larger pair and thus go from 5.1 to 7.1.
This is precisely what I intend to do. Start with a decent 5.1 and later when funds permit, insert a pair of front speakers. Now I could keep Mirage and insert one of their fine towers. That would probably be ideal.
But for years I have been in love with the sound of Martin Logan Electrostatics. I could not possibly afford a full blown 7.1 with only Martin Logan. But how would it be if I placed the Vistas as my main speaker and surrounded with Omnisats?
Given the openness of these speakers, would it be a better fit than some traditional boxed design like Polk or Definitive Technologies?
Have you done something similar?
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Onkyo DV-BD507 Blu-ray Player
Adrian Wittenberg and Gabe Lowe - Monday, 18 January 2010
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Adrian Wittenberg and Gabe Lowe - Monday, 18 January 2010
It wasn’t but about 18 months ago that Blu-ray players were still considered high end devices, selling mostly to enthusiasts, videophiles, and the like. Recently, the market for these players has really taken off, mostly due to the big box retailers dropping prices to DVD player levels. The fact that one can walk into a Wal-Mart and purchase a Blu-ray player for under $150 makes it somewhat of a commodity item at this point. Why not own one? Blu-ray discs are indeed more expensive (sometimes prohibitively so), but on the rental front, you can get them from Blockbuster or Netflix on the cheap, and enjoy your films in much higher quality.
Comments (3)
How does it compare to the Oppo?
written by Mel , January 20, 2010
It has the same price tag as the Oppo. How does it compare to the Oppo?
written by Mel , January 20, 2010
It has the same price tag as the Oppo. How does it compare to the Oppo?
Comparison to Oppo
written by BasicBlak , January 21, 2010
Mel, I think the short answer is, it DOESN'T compare. If you pull up their review of the Oppo, you'll see the choice is pretty clear. Decent attempt by Onkyo overall, but it appears to be way overpriced for what you get especially in light of what's currently available for the same (or lower) price--and I'm an Onkyo owner! ;-)
written by BasicBlak , January 21, 2010
Mel, I think the short answer is, it DOESN'T compare. If you pull up their review of the Oppo, you'll see the choice is pretty clear. Decent attempt by Onkyo overall, but it appears to be way overpriced for what you get especially in light of what's currently available for the same (or lower) price--and I'm an Onkyo owner! ;-)
Internet Support
written by FRR , January 29, 2010
If you look at this device, in isolation, the support for streaming services such as Pandora is none existent, but take a look at the high end Onkyo receivers and you will find Pandora support. So, what device do you want to support services such as Pandora, your Blu-Ray Player or surround sound receiver? Personally, I prefer having the receiver being the gateway to the internet.
As far as performance of the DVD player on the bench tests, it still falls short even when compared to Sony's low end S350.
written by FRR , January 29, 2010
If you look at this device, in isolation, the support for streaming services such as Pandora is none existent, but take a look at the high end Onkyo receivers and you will find Pandora support. So, what device do you want to support services such as Pandora, your Blu-Ray Player or surround sound receiver? Personally, I prefer having the receiver being the gateway to the internet.
As far as performance of the DVD player on the bench tests, it still falls short even when compared to Sony's low end S350.
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Revel Performa F52 Tower Speakers, C52 Center Channel Speaker, S30 Surround Speakers, and Concerta B120 Subwoofer
Chris Eberle - Thursday, 14 January 2010
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Chris Eberle - Thursday, 14 January 2010
In 1996 an announcement was made about a new speaker company being formed under the very large umbrella of the Harman brand. One could say a perfect storm was created when Harman committed their considerable resources, and Kevin Voecks; a protégé of legendary audio engineer Dr. Floyd Toole, was brought on as Head Engineer. Harman wanted a speaker brand to match the quality of its Levinson electronics. These speakers would be designed using pure science and only released to market when proven to out-perform the competition in double-blind listening tests. We know that brand today as Revel.
Comments (6)
Axiom
written by jc bemoit , January 15, 2010
Hi Chris,
What Axiom speaker models are you using and what do you power them with ?
jc
written by jc bemoit , January 15, 2010
Hi Chris,
What Axiom speaker models are you using and what do you power them with ?
jc
...
written by Chris Eberle , January 16, 2010
I have M60 towers, a VP150 center, and QS8 surrounds. The sub is an SVS PB12 Plus. My amp is an Emotiva XPA-5. I've had various pre-amps including an Anthem D2v and an Onkyo TX-SR805 receiver. I'm waiting on an Emotiva UMC-1.
written by Chris Eberle , January 16, 2010
I have M60 towers, a VP150 center, and QS8 surrounds. The sub is an SVS PB12 Plus. My amp is an Emotiva XPA-5. I've had various pre-amps including an Anthem D2v and an Onkyo TX-SR805 receiver. I'm waiting on an Emotiva UMC-1.
...
written by Chris Eberle , January 21, 2010
My room is 12 x 12 with 9-foot ceilings. I have mineral wool panels on the walls to tame the highs and room correction to tame the lows!
written by Chris Eberle , January 21, 2010
My room is 12 x 12 with 9-foot ceilings. I have mineral wool panels on the walls to tame the highs and room correction to tame the lows!
Suggestions
written by Nick , January 26, 2010
I am building a new home theater, and need your valued suggestion, since I am not an expert:
What would be your suggestion for a Preamp and Poweramp to be used with Axiom Speakers - M80, EP600, VP150 & QS8? As per your suggestion if I buy Emotiva UMC-1, do I still need to get Preamp and Poweramp?
written by Nick , January 26, 2010
I am building a new home theater, and need your valued suggestion, since I am not an expert:
What would be your suggestion for a Preamp and Poweramp to be used with Axiom Speakers - M80, EP600, VP150 & QS8? As per your suggestion if I buy Emotiva UMC-1, do I still need to get Preamp and Poweramp?
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Bowers and Wilkins Zeppelin iPod Amplified Speaker Dock System
Adrian Wittenberg - Thursday, 07 January 2010
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Adrian Wittenberg - Thursday, 07 January 2010
The iPod dock/speaker market continues to grow every year and more high end speaker manufacturers are joining the game. Products range from cheap and flimsy $20 plastic models to higher end models such as the Fatman iTube Red-i that lists for $649. Bowers and Wilkins, renowned British loudspeaker company, has created their own high end iPod speaker dock system called the Zeppelin, which lists at $599, and is the subject of this review.
Comments (8)
What about Bose?
written by ChrisHeinonen , January 08, 2010
Do you think Bose has a better sound dock for an iPod than B&W? Do you consider Bose overpriced and consider this B&W to be the same, despite probably never having heard it?
As someone that's gone and listened to the B&W, as well as other iPod sound docks, I can say the B&W is easily the best that I've heard. When my Dad wanted a recommendation for one at home, I suggested this, knowing he could afford it. If someone else asked me that I know couldn't afford it, I'd probably recommend the best thing they could afford, but know there was a better option out there.
The B&W carries a higher price than most sound docks out there, but from my experience, you get something for that money and it's not just spent on design or a badge, as some people would accuse other companies of.
written by ChrisHeinonen , January 08, 2010
Do you think Bose has a better sound dock for an iPod than B&W? Do you consider Bose overpriced and consider this B&W to be the same, despite probably never having heard it?
As someone that's gone and listened to the B&W, as well as other iPod sound docks, I can say the B&W is easily the best that I've heard. When my Dad wanted a recommendation for one at home, I suggested this, knowing he could afford it. If someone else asked me that I know couldn't afford it, I'd probably recommend the best thing they could afford, but know there was a better option out there.
The B&W carries a higher price than most sound docks out there, but from my experience, you get something for that money and it's not just spent on design or a badge, as some people would accuse other companies of.
...
written by Willis345 , January 10, 2010
Why not just buy a cheap digital ipod dock and use your normal system? So much for high end being about performance, this product is no different then bose and it show's.
written by Willis345 , January 10, 2010
Why not just buy a cheap digital ipod dock and use your normal system? So much for high end being about performance, this product is no different then bose and it show's.
Not the point
written by ChrisHeinonen , January 11, 2010
The point of the B&W, or most other iPod docks, is not to interface through your normal system. If that is what you are after, go buy the Wadia transport to hook it up to an external DAC and get the best possible sound out of the iPod by using it as a digital transport. The point of this, or any other dock, is to have an easy way to play music somewhere from your iPod, and probably a nice portable way.
A majority of people out there have an iPod, or an iPhone, or multiples, and sound docks give them an easy, fairly portable way to get music off of those without needing to setup an entire stereo. The B&W costs more than most of them, but it also sound better than any other one I have heard.
Once again, I'm guessing you have not gone out and taken the time to listen to the product and are just assuming it's junk, which is ridiculous to do since I've never heard anything from B&W sound like junk in my life, and you don't even understand the role that a product like that would fill. Don't go out and say that the B&W can't have good performance without listening to it just because you think it's overpriced but haven't tried it out.
written by ChrisHeinonen , January 11, 2010
The point of the B&W, or most other iPod docks, is not to interface through your normal system. If that is what you are after, go buy the Wadia transport to hook it up to an external DAC and get the best possible sound out of the iPod by using it as a digital transport. The point of this, or any other dock, is to have an easy way to play music somewhere from your iPod, and probably a nice portable way.
A majority of people out there have an iPod, or an iPhone, or multiples, and sound docks give them an easy, fairly portable way to get music off of those without needing to setup an entire stereo. The B&W costs more than most of them, but it also sound better than any other one I have heard.
Once again, I'm guessing you have not gone out and taken the time to listen to the product and are just assuming it's junk, which is ridiculous to do since I've never heard anything from B&W sound like junk in my life, and you don't even understand the role that a product like that would fill. Don't go out and say that the B&W can't have good performance without listening to it just because you think it's overpriced but haven't tried it out.
...
written by Willis345 , January 11, 2010
Please, so not high end audio is about sacrifice of performance for convenience? Sounds like a bose product to me.
written by Willis345 , January 11, 2010
Please, so not high end audio is about sacrifice of performance for convenience? Sounds like a bose product to me.
Still not understanding the point
written by ChrisHeinonen , January 12, 2010
Some of us want good sound in our office, or kitchen, or living room, and don't want to have to setup another stereo in there, and want to be able to play music off of their iPod/iPhone, or the iPod of their friends or family. No one in the article advocated giving up their other stereo for this, or that this was the pinnacle of high end audio. However, I'm done discussing the product with someone that doesn't understand the market for the product, hasn't heard it, and is making judgments on it with no evidence or reasoning to back those up other than "It costs a lot so it must be all style over substance".
written by ChrisHeinonen , January 12, 2010
Some of us want good sound in our office, or kitchen, or living room, and don't want to have to setup another stereo in there, and want to be able to play music off of their iPod/iPhone, or the iPod of their friends or family. No one in the article advocated giving up their other stereo for this, or that this was the pinnacle of high end audio. However, I'm done discussing the product with someone that doesn't understand the market for the product, hasn't heard it, and is making judgments on it with no evidence or reasoning to back those up other than "It costs a lot so it must be all style over substance".
a third opinion on the bose/B&W discussion.
written by bfwiat , January 27, 2010
Sound docks are good for :
bedrooms, teenagers, studies, kitchens, at computer desks, outside on the porch, around the pool, upstairs on the balcony, out in the shed.
What most sound docks do NOT do . . .is sound like music.
The B&W Zeppelin actually sounds like music!
It sounds like music with Jazz, Classical, 80's pop, Hip Hop, House, world, Funk, Soul . . . . . . it does this with a minimum of fuss at most volume levels.
THIS IS EXCITING!
A sound dock that makes music is absolutely worthy of a good review, it does justify the price, and makes the sound dock a piece of Hi-Fi at last.
(remember when an iPod was a dirty word in Hi-Fi?)
Docks such as the Bose go loud with fat bass (not a good fat bass in my opinion, awful actually . . .just loud and lots of it), but teenagers love that sound.
The B&W Zeppelin is the first sound dock I have heard that actually sounds like music.
P.S - I do own a decent Hi-Fi rig and yet can still appreciate the combination of performance and convenience of the Zeppelin!
written by bfwiat , January 27, 2010
Sound docks are good for :
bedrooms, teenagers, studies, kitchens, at computer desks, outside on the porch, around the pool, upstairs on the balcony, out in the shed.
What most sound docks do NOT do . . .is sound like music.
The B&W Zeppelin actually sounds like music!
It sounds like music with Jazz, Classical, 80's pop, Hip Hop, House, world, Funk, Soul . . . . . . it does this with a minimum of fuss at most volume levels.
THIS IS EXCITING!
A sound dock that makes music is absolutely worthy of a good review, it does justify the price, and makes the sound dock a piece of Hi-Fi at last.
(remember when an iPod was a dirty word in Hi-Fi?)
Docks such as the Bose go loud with fat bass (not a good fat bass in my opinion, awful actually . . .just loud and lots of it), but teenagers love that sound.
The B&W Zeppelin is the first sound dock I have heard that actually sounds like music.
P.S - I do own a decent Hi-Fi rig and yet can still appreciate the combination of performance and convenience of the Zeppelin!
Costly but I bought one.... why ? No compromise
written by Els , February 09, 2010
Yep, when comparing the VAF Octavio and the Bose Sounddock 10....just couldn't go past the B&W. It is everything that it wants to be (unlike some of the other ipod docks). Still not sure, go to a hi-fi store or dept. store and road test them all with your own iphone/ipod and then you'll realise. It's the best but costly. However when you play the music the money is all worth it. You can't get Ferrari sound on Corvette budget. Try it and if you can't afford it...borrow the money.
Well done to B&W for leading the way with an brilliant product.
written by Els , February 09, 2010
Yep, when comparing the VAF Octavio and the Bose Sounddock 10....just couldn't go past the B&W. It is everything that it wants to be (unlike some of the other ipod docks). Still not sure, go to a hi-fi store or dept. store and road test them all with your own iphone/ipod and then you'll realise. It's the best but costly. However when you play the music the money is all worth it. You can't get Ferrari sound on Corvette budget. Try it and if you can't afford it...borrow the money.
Well done to B&W for leading the way with an brilliant product.
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Gefen HDMI Detective Plus
Sumit Chawla - Monday, 04 January 2010
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Sumit Chawla - Monday, 04 January 2010
I caught the HTPC bug sometime back and went about building one after receiving component recommendations from Sandy Bird, one of our Senior Editors. The installation went smoothly. Then, one day I encountered an issue I had not seen before. Switching the source input from the HTPC to some other source, such as my DVR, and then back to the HTPC would sometimes give a small 800x600 window centered on the display. The output was no longer 1080p, the resolution I started out with.
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PrimaLuna DiaLogue Seven Tube Monoblock Power Amplifier
John E. Johnson, Jr. - Thursday, 31 December 2009
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John E. Johnson, Jr. - Thursday, 31 December 2009
PrimaLuna is a Dutch-based company that released its first products, the ProLogue One and ProLogue Two integrated tube amplifiers in 2003. Then, in 2006, they released the ProLogue Three preamplifier, and ProLogue Five, Six, and Seven power amplifiers. Late in that same year, the PrimaLuna DiaLogue series hit the market, which had the DiaLogue's basic features, but with upgraded parts and additional capabilities. Here, we review the DiaLogue Seven, which is a monoblock power amplifier, capable of delivering 40 watts RMS in triode mode, and 70 watts RMS in ultra-linear mode (see review for an explanation of what this means). The bottom line is that the PrimaLuna DiaLogue Seven monoblock is more than capable of delivering a clean, detailed, and lush sound (ah, those tubes are responsible for that).
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NuVision NVU65FX5 65" LCD Flat-Panel HDTV
Chris Eberle - Thursday, 31 December 2009
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Chris Eberle - Thursday, 31 December 2009
PRICE DROP AS OF 1-18-10. When shopping for an LCD panel, NuVision is not one of the first manufacturers that come to mind. Sold only through a network of CEDIA-member dealers, NuVision is firmly in the category of boutique brands. Their line of televisions are “built by connoisseurs for connoisseurs” to quote their website. Here, we review the NuVision 65" NVU65FX5, which is their 65" LCD Flat-panel HDTV. At an MSRP of $10,499 ($9,999 for black bezel version), it is a pricey HDTV. Read our review to see if it cuts the mustard at the checkout counter.
Comments (13)
Competitive??
written by Scott , December 31, 2009
First, I do not doubt your review in general, as I am sure this is an excellent large LCD panel. That said, I do question your comment, "Considering this is an exclusive boutique product it’s priced very competitively." I am willing to grant that boutique products should cost more, in return for exclusivity and the additional dealer assistance. However, I think your statement is a bit overzealous. I currently own a Panasonic TC-P65V10. The screen size is the same as the reviewed panel. In all respects, I find the performance to be excellent. List price is $3999. My paying price was $3200. This is far less than your $10000, 65" Panasonic reference. Even using the TC-P65V10 list price, the reviewed NuVision panel is 3 times the Panny price. Note Panasonic makes a less expensive version of this panel, theTC-P65S1, with a street price well below $3000. I suggest the NuVision pricing is not terribly competitive. Even if you add professional installation costs, a scaler and ISF calibration, you will be less than half the price of the NuVision set alone. IMHO you should test one of the larger Panny V10 displays and compare them to the NuVision, then make a value judgement.
written by Scott , December 31, 2009
First, I do not doubt your review in general, as I am sure this is an excellent large LCD panel. That said, I do question your comment, "Considering this is an exclusive boutique product it’s priced very competitively." I am willing to grant that boutique products should cost more, in return for exclusivity and the additional dealer assistance. However, I think your statement is a bit overzealous. I currently own a Panasonic TC-P65V10. The screen size is the same as the reviewed panel. In all respects, I find the performance to be excellent. List price is $3999. My paying price was $3200. This is far less than your $10000, 65" Panasonic reference. Even using the TC-P65V10 list price, the reviewed NuVision panel is 3 times the Panny price. Note Panasonic makes a less expensive version of this panel, theTC-P65S1, with a street price well below $3000. I suggest the NuVision pricing is not terribly competitive. Even if you add professional installation costs, a scaler and ISF calibration, you will be less than half the price of the NuVision set alone. IMHO you should test one of the larger Panny V10 displays and compare them to the NuVision, then make a value judgement.
Too little too late
written by richardallen3 , December 31, 2009
Compared to the recently reviewed Vizio, this comes off a distant second at only 6 times the price, Even at 65", this hardly compares to the Panasonic v series except for brightness.
written by richardallen3 , December 31, 2009
Compared to the recently reviewed Vizio, this comes off a distant second at only 6 times the price, Even at 65", this hardly compares to the Panasonic v series except for brightness.
Waste of money
written by Michael , January 01, 2010
Panasonic 65" costs 4K$,
This is the best television the money can buy
written by Michael , January 01, 2010
Panasonic 65" costs 4K$,
This is the best television the money can buy
$10000 Panasonic?
written by Brian , January 01, 2010
The Panasonic 65" TC-P65V10 retails for $3995, which I would think has at least as good a picture as this TV. Not saying they are made for the same market as the NuVision, but you can get an excellent picture from a 65" TV for 1/3rd the cost.
written by Brian , January 01, 2010
The Panasonic 65" TC-P65V10 retails for $3995, which I would think has at least as good a picture as this TV. Not saying they are made for the same market as the NuVision, but you can get an excellent picture from a 65" TV for 1/3rd the cost.
LED?
written by Fletcher , January 01, 2010
I wanted to read this review because the title said "LED" and I wondered how it would compare to the recently reviewed Vizio. Did not have to read far to find out the title is wrong. I do wonder why you say this TV is priced "competitively." Competitive with what? If Vizio can make the best 55" LCD/LED set you have seen, one can think that this 65" set will not be competitive with anything for very long. Anyone buying a $12000 TV just proves that you do not have to be smart to be rich.
written by Fletcher , January 01, 2010
I wanted to read this review because the title said "LED" and I wondered how it would compare to the recently reviewed Vizio. Did not have to read far to find out the title is wrong. I do wonder why you say this TV is priced "competitively." Competitive with what? If Vizio can make the best 55" LCD/LED set you have seen, one can think that this 65" set will not be competitive with anything for very long. Anyone buying a $12000 TV just proves that you do not have to be smart to be rich.
Confused By Title
written by Scott , January 02, 2010
I am a little confused by the title of the article as it states this is a review of an LED LCD not a standard LCD. Yet on the first page of the article it is clearly stated that this is a standard CCFL LCD not LED and that the LED version will be tested at a later date?
written by Scott , January 02, 2010
I am a little confused by the title of the article as it states this is a review of an LED LCD not a standard LCD. Yet on the first page of the article it is clearly stated that this is a standard CCFL LCD not LED and that the LED version will be tested at a later date?
Wrong title for article?
written by Young-Ho , January 02, 2010
Why is the article titled "NuVision NVU65FX5 65" LCD LED Flat-Panel HDTV" when it's not an LED Flat-Panel HDTV?
written by Young-Ho , January 02, 2010
Why is the article titled "NuVision NVU65FX5 65" LCD LED Flat-Panel HDTV" when it's not an LED Flat-Panel HDTV?
Wrong article title?
written by Young-Ho , January 02, 2010
Why is the article titled "NuVision NVU65FX5 65" LCD LED Flat-Panel HDTV" when it's not an LED TV?
written by Young-Ho , January 02, 2010
Why is the article titled "NuVision NVU65FX5 65" LCD LED Flat-Panel HDTV" when it's not an LED TV?
LCD Not LED Corrected
written by sej , January 03, 2010
Thanks for the heads-up, we mistitled in readying this review for publication. Sorry for the confusion...
written by sej , January 03, 2010
Thanks for the heads-up, we mistitled in readying this review for publication. Sorry for the confusion...
...
written by JEJ , January 03, 2010
Sorry about the titling error on it being an LED HDTV when it is not. That was my fault when I did the final edit. I had just finished the VIZIO review and put the LED in the NuVision title as a reflex.
written by JEJ , January 03, 2010
Sorry about the titling error on it being an LED HDTV when it is not. That was my fault when I did the final edit. I had just finished the VIZIO review and put the LED in the NuVision title as a reflex.
...
written by Chris Eberle , January 03, 2010
Please bear in mind the market this TV is intended for. Yes a Panasonic or Vizio is much cheaper and the performance is comparable. When an installer is bidding a high six-figure system, he's looking to integrate a display that makes a strong physical statement as well as one that carries some exclusivity. I doubt anyone in a multi-million dollar home with $250,000 or more in a media room is going to accept a Vizio or Panasonic panel. The NuVision has far better physical build quality than those brands. You should also realize that most clients don't care what brand of gear the installer puts in. They agree on a budget and expect the best equipment for that price.
NuVision is not trying to compete with store-bought brands like Panasonic and Vizio. The custom install market is a completely different animal.
written by Chris Eberle , January 03, 2010
Please bear in mind the market this TV is intended for. Yes a Panasonic or Vizio is much cheaper and the performance is comparable. When an installer is bidding a high six-figure system, he's looking to integrate a display that makes a strong physical statement as well as one that carries some exclusivity. I doubt anyone in a multi-million dollar home with $250,000 or more in a media room is going to accept a Vizio or Panasonic panel. The NuVision has far better physical build quality than those brands. You should also realize that most clients don't care what brand of gear the installer puts in. They agree on a budget and expect the best equipment for that price.
NuVision is not trying to compete with store-bought brands like Panasonic and Vizio. The custom install market is a completely different animal.
Rebuttal to Chris Eberle
written by richardallen3 , January 04, 2010
I disagree srongly with your rebuttal comment. Build quality that does not produce a superior picture , in a display device, is wasted. Especially, in the custom install market you expect better results (i.e. picture).
This product is overpriced for it's primary function. There are better alternatives based on performance, not price. The best always costs more, but just because it costs more doesn't make it the best.
written by richardallen3 , January 04, 2010
I disagree srongly with your rebuttal comment. Build quality that does not produce a superior picture , in a display device, is wasted. Especially, in the custom install market you expect better results (i.e. picture).
This product is overpriced for it's primary function. There are better alternatives based on performance, not price. The best always costs more, but just because it costs more doesn't make it the best.
I second that richardallen3
written by This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it , January 08, 2010
as a CEDIA installer for 13years, I find your comment that we would stick in an over priced TV because my wealthy client wants exclusivity, way off base. My client recognizes my expertise and is counting on me to use that to provide the best system at the best price. Yes, that price can be high but it must be justifiable. I am a NuVision dealer and the TV's are awesome. I always let my client decide after he has the info to do so. I would tell him the Panny has a great picture at $4000 but the NuVision has better build quality, better manf support and retails for $12000. Then I would offer a discount on the NuVision that would let him know he doesn't have to pay retail. My margin is still better than selling the Panny, my client gets a great picture, on a great set at a good price. In the end he decides the value of "exclusivity" not me.
written by This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it , January 08, 2010
as a CEDIA installer for 13years, I find your comment that we would stick in an over priced TV because my wealthy client wants exclusivity, way off base. My client recognizes my expertise and is counting on me to use that to provide the best system at the best price. Yes, that price can be high but it must be justifiable. I am a NuVision dealer and the TV's are awesome. I always let my client decide after he has the info to do so. I would tell him the Panny has a great picture at $4000 but the NuVision has better build quality, better manf support and retails for $12000. Then I would offer a discount on the NuVision that would let him know he doesn't have to pay retail. My margin is still better than selling the Panny, my client gets a great picture, on a great set at a good price. In the end he decides the value of "exclusivity" not me.
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Centronics DHCT5 Cat 5 HDMI Extender
John E. Johnson, Jr. - Monday, 28 December 2009
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John E. Johnson, Jr. - Monday, 28 December 2009
For those of us who need to get a high definition program that is stored or being broadcast from a satellite or cable receiver in one room to an HDTV in another room that may be at the other end of the house, simply using a long HDMI cable won't work due to signal loss. However, several manufacturers are now producing HDMI extenders that use Cat 5 (or Cat 6 if you like) cable. Some that I took a look at but chose not to review needed two Cat 5 cables, so I waited. Now, Centronics offers an extender that requires only one Cat 5 cable and will send 1080p up to 100 feet from the source to your HDTV. You plug a short HDMI cable from your satellite box into the Centronics transmitter and another short HDMI cable into the receiver and HDTV at the other end. Custom installers take note: You will want to have a couple of these in your van when you start on a project.
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Emotiva X-Series A/V Cables
John E. Johnson, Jr. - Wednesday, 23 December 2009
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John E. Johnson, Jr. - Wednesday, 23 December 2009
Emotiva, which started out marketing amplifiers, expanded to include preamplifiers, SSPs, speakers, and now, to complete the line, a complete series of cables. These include coaxial analog RCA, coaxial digital RCA, digital Toslink, balanced XLR, HDMI, and speaker cables. They come in two models, one being the X-Series that we review here, and the Ultra-Series, which is the entry level. I found the cables to be extremely well constructed, with gold-plated contacts, and rugged enough to be man-handled through the typical maze of wires that we all have behind our equipment racks. The sound in my reference system using the Emotiva cables was excellent. The prices are very reasonable, and are a better value than what I see in blister packs at various mass market electronic stores.
Comments (34)
Soldering
written by ChrisHeinonen , December 23, 2009
John,
I read the review for the Emotiva cables this morning and had some questions about things you brought up in the bench testing. With regards to the soldered connection vs. other connections, how does this apply to the cables (as some of this seemed aimed towards connections on other things, such as equipment or a crossover board or something else). Some big names, like WBT, use crimp compression connections instead of soldering, and it sounds like that might start out OK, but degrade rapidly? Does this article say that you should only go with soldered connections for cables if you want them to maintain their quality over time?
Also, with connections, it sounds like gold over brass is the way to go? Does that article talk about silver at all as a connection, or is gold superior? I'll go out and try to find that copy of Audio Xpress today (something I don't usually read). I need to get some higher quality interconnects in the near future and had been considering the Emotiva offerings (I got an HDMI cable from them, and it has worked fine so far), but was waiting for some more people to weight in on their cables. Oh, how did the interchangeable connectors on the speaker cables work? I didn't see that mentioned in the article, and part of me worries about that, that it might degrade the quality of the connection as opposed to having only bananas or spades soldered directly.
Thanks.
written by ChrisHeinonen , December 23, 2009
John,
I read the review for the Emotiva cables this morning and had some questions about things you brought up in the bench testing. With regards to the soldered connection vs. other connections, how does this apply to the cables (as some of this seemed aimed towards connections on other things, such as equipment or a crossover board or something else). Some big names, like WBT, use crimp compression connections instead of soldering, and it sounds like that might start out OK, but degrade rapidly? Does this article say that you should only go with soldered connections for cables if you want them to maintain their quality over time?
Also, with connections, it sounds like gold over brass is the way to go? Does that article talk about silver at all as a connection, or is gold superior? I'll go out and try to find that copy of Audio Xpress today (something I don't usually read). I need to get some higher quality interconnects in the near future and had been considering the Emotiva offerings (I got an HDMI cable from them, and it has worked fine so far), but was waiting for some more people to weight in on their cables. Oh, how did the interchangeable connectors on the speaker cables work? I didn't see that mentioned in the article, and part of me worries about that, that it might degrade the quality of the connection as opposed to having only bananas or spades soldered directly.
Thanks.
...
written by JEJ , December 23, 2009
Gold-plated solid copper connectors appear to be the best, and yes, the wire should be soldered to the connector rather than crimped.
If you look at the electrical conductivity of various metals, you will see that copper is very high, while brass, which contains copper and zinc, would be lower, since zinc is very low. FYI, bronze is copper and tin.
http://www.myhrsb.ca/Functions/Program/Static/Curriculum/eng/science/9/SupplementaryPages/MetalsElectConductivity.htm
written by JEJ , December 23, 2009
Gold-plated solid copper connectors appear to be the best, and yes, the wire should be soldered to the connector rather than crimped.
If you look at the electrical conductivity of various metals, you will see that copper is very high, while brass, which contains copper and zinc, would be lower, since zinc is very low. FYI, bronze is copper and tin.
http://www.myhrsb.ca/Functions/Program/Static/Curriculum/eng/science/9/SupplementaryPages/MetalsElectConductivity.htm
Gol Plated
written by Jim Clements , December 23, 2009
I believe gold has an added advantage over other metals because it doesn't tarnish.
written by Jim Clements , December 23, 2009
I believe gold has an added advantage over other metals because it doesn't tarnish.
More snake oil.
written by Willis , December 23, 2009
I don't blame emotiva or anyone else for selling this snake oil since they make such a huge profit but why are people still "buying" into this snake oil when it has been proven wrong time and time again? If you think or hear otherwise please go and collect you $1,000,000 prize fro james randi.
written by Willis , December 23, 2009
I don't blame emotiva or anyone else for selling this snake oil since they make such a huge profit but why are people still "buying" into this snake oil when it has been proven wrong time and time again? If you think or hear otherwise please go and collect you $1,000,000 prize fro james randi.
...
written by Willis345 , December 23, 2009
James randi and his $1,000,000 prize for all those golden ears out there.
written by Willis345 , December 23, 2009
James randi and his $1,000,000 prize for all those golden ears out there.
emogear
written by sksol , December 23, 2009
Emo, then, would be in the brass category.
Have fun with it! With love, CP
written by sksol , December 23, 2009
Emo, then, would be in the brass category.
Have fun with it! With love, CP
Soldered
written by ChrisHeinonen , December 24, 2009
So, would you only buy cables that were soldered then? A lot of cables use connectors from WBT, or Canare, that are very well regarded, but only compression instead of soldered. I have a few cables like this in my system, but perhaps I'll start to look at replacing the wiring with something that is soldered in the near future, with gold-plated copper connectors, so I don't worry about future degradation of quality.
The X-Series cables from Emotiva use brass, and not pure copper, in the connectors, correct? This didn't seem to have much of an impact on quality from your review. Would you say the fact that the cable is properly constructed, soldered, and gold plated to prevent future degradation in quality is more important than having used some brass instead of pure copper?
written by ChrisHeinonen , December 24, 2009
So, would you only buy cables that were soldered then? A lot of cables use connectors from WBT, or Canare, that are very well regarded, but only compression instead of soldered. I have a few cables like this in my system, but perhaps I'll start to look at replacing the wiring with something that is soldered in the near future, with gold-plated copper connectors, so I don't worry about future degradation of quality.
The X-Series cables from Emotiva use brass, and not pure copper, in the connectors, correct? This didn't seem to have much of an impact on quality from your review. Would you say the fact that the cable is properly constructed, soldered, and gold plated to prevent future degradation in quality is more important than having used some brass instead of pure copper?
...
written by JEJ , December 24, 2009
The Emotiva cables use brass connectors plated with gold. Brass contains zinc which is a poor conductor. The sound was excellent using the Emotiva cables, and I don't know if I would have heard any difference had the connectors been solid copper. I think the most important things would be that the connectors are gold-plated and that the wire is soldered to the connector rather than crimped. I may have to just get various connectors, gold-plated copper, gold-plated brass, non-plated solid brass, non-plated tin, etc., and compare them using the same wire, soldered vs. crimped. Ed Simon in the Audio Xpress article has basically done this experiment, comparing connectors, but not using the same wire.
written by JEJ , December 24, 2009
The Emotiva cables use brass connectors plated with gold. Brass contains zinc which is a poor conductor. The sound was excellent using the Emotiva cables, and I don't know if I would have heard any difference had the connectors been solid copper. I think the most important things would be that the connectors are gold-plated and that the wire is soldered to the connector rather than crimped. I may have to just get various connectors, gold-plated copper, gold-plated brass, non-plated solid brass, non-plated tin, etc., and compare them using the same wire, soldered vs. crimped. Ed Simon in the Audio Xpress article has basically done this experiment, comparing connectors, but not using the same wire.
...
written by JEJ , December 24, 2009
If you are criticizing $40/pair interconnects as "snake oil" you are obviously satisfied with that little wrapped bundle of cables that come with DVD players. You know, the ones with red, white, and yellow RCA plugs. There are interconnects out there that cost $5,000/pair. I can see you criticizing those, but $40/pair? I don't think so. I have tried some really, really inexpensive cables and they fall apart.
written by JEJ , December 24, 2009
If you are criticizing $40/pair interconnects as "snake oil" you are obviously satisfied with that little wrapped bundle of cables that come with DVD players. You know, the ones with red, white, and yellow RCA plugs. There are interconnects out there that cost $5,000/pair. I can see you criticizing those, but $40/pair? I don't think so. I have tried some really, really inexpensive cables and they fall apart.
...
written by JEJ , December 24, 2009
The speaker cables come with interchangeable connectors, i.e., banana or spade lugs, but I didn't try that out. I just used the bananas that were on the cables when they arrived.
written by JEJ , December 24, 2009
The speaker cables come with interchangeable connectors, i.e., banana or spade lugs, but I didn't try that out. I just used the bananas that were on the cables when they arrived.
Cardas compression
written by ChrisHeinonen , December 24, 2009
Have you seen the videos of the Cardas compression forged spades? Not
soldered, but from the looks of it you wouldn't have any issues with
oxidization or your connections coming loose in the near future:
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=products&content_id=23&pagestring=Ser
vice and Re-Termination&product_id=102
written by ChrisHeinonen , December 24, 2009
Have you seen the videos of the Cardas compression forged spades? Not
soldered, but from the looks of it you wouldn't have any issues with
oxidization or your connections coming loose in the near future:
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=products&content_id=23&pagestring=Ser
vice and Re-Termination&product_id=102
...
written by JEJ , December 25, 2009
Just to make it clear, Ed Simon in his Audio Xpress article, when referring to the differences between crimped and soldered, gold-plated vs. non gold-plated, etc., was talking about what he saw with his distortion meter, not how they sounded. I am not sure if any of these differences are audible, but differences in the electrical properties are indeed measureable.
written by JEJ , December 25, 2009
Just to make it clear, Ed Simon in his Audio Xpress article, when referring to the differences between crimped and soldered, gold-plated vs. non gold-plated, etc., was talking about what he saw with his distortion meter, not how they sounded. I am not sure if any of these differences are audible, but differences in the electrical properties are indeed measureable.
Crimped vs solid
written by CG , December 25, 2009
Just a comment that on most all high reliability spaceflight and aircraft connectors, the conductors are crimped rather than soldered. Soldering is only used where there isn't a choice. This is not necessarily because of electrical performance, but reliability; crimped contacts are much less likely to break at the joint.
This isn't a comment that means to say soldering is "bad" for audio cables, just that crimping isn't necessarily bad either if done correctly.
written by CG , December 25, 2009
Just a comment that on most all high reliability spaceflight and aircraft connectors, the conductors are crimped rather than soldered. Soldering is only used where there isn't a choice. This is not necessarily because of electrical performance, but reliability; crimped contacts are much less likely to break at the joint.
This isn't a comment that means to say soldering is "bad" for audio cables, just that crimping isn't necessarily bad either if done correctly.
Snake Oil
written by TRT , December 25, 2009
If $40 a pair is too much money and considered a "snake-oil" purchase, you might as well use wire coat hangers. The last person that complained to me about cables in this price range had their TV sitting on 4 telephone books in front of a bean bag.
written by TRT , December 25, 2009
If $40 a pair is too much money and considered a "snake-oil" purchase, you might as well use wire coat hangers. The last person that complained to me about cables in this price range had their TV sitting on 4 telephone books in front of a bean bag.
Checking for Soldering
written by ChrisHeinonen , December 26, 2009
With these changes being measurable, does this mean that in future reviews we should try to look for things that should be soldered but aren't? Specifically I think that many companies don't solder connections on things like a crossover, where it's easier to assemble a speaker by using connectors that snap together instead of having someone solder them together. This might be hard to examine sometimes, but it would be nice to know how well things were assembled.
written by ChrisHeinonen , December 26, 2009
With these changes being measurable, does this mean that in future reviews we should try to look for things that should be soldered but aren't? Specifically I think that many companies don't solder connections on things like a crossover, where it's easier to assemble a speaker by using connectors that snap together instead of having someone solder them together. This might be hard to examine sometimes, but it would be nice to know how well things were assembled.
...
written by Willis345 , December 26, 2009
"If you are criticizing $40/pair interconnects as "snake oil" you are obviously satisfied with that little wrapped bundle of cables that come with DVD players. You know, the ones with red, white, and yellow RCA plugs. There are interconnects out there that cost $5,000/pair. I can see you criticizing those, but $40/pair? I don't think so. I have tried some really, really inexpensive cables and they fall apart."
Speaking from a purley audible stand point, yes the red and white interconnects will sound 100% the same. This has been proven in many DBT's.
written by Willis345 , December 26, 2009
"If you are criticizing $40/pair interconnects as "snake oil" you are obviously satisfied with that little wrapped bundle of cables that come with DVD players. You know, the ones with red, white, and yellow RCA plugs. There are interconnects out there that cost $5,000/pair. I can see you criticizing those, but $40/pair? I don't think so. I have tried some really, really inexpensive cables and they fall apart."
Speaking from a purley audible stand point, yes the red and white interconnects will sound 100% the same. This has been proven in many DBT's.
...
written by JEJ , December 26, 2009
To Willis345 who said:
"Speaking from a purley audible stand point, yes the red and white interconnects will sound 100% the same. This has been proven in many DBT's."
Please provide URLs to the DBTs you are referring to where they tested those little packets of red, white, and yellow RCA interconnects against higher cost interconnects, including entry level ($40/pair) and high end (e.g., $2,000/pair) interconnects.
written by JEJ , December 26, 2009
To Willis345 who said:
"Speaking from a purley audible stand point, yes the red and white interconnects will sound 100% the same. This has been proven in many DBT's."
Please provide URLs to the DBTs you are referring to where they tested those little packets of red, white, and yellow RCA interconnects against higher cost interconnects, including entry level ($40/pair) and high end (e.g., $2,000/pair) interconnects.
...
written by JEJ , December 26, 2009
On spacecraft components, I suspect they crimp the connections for two reasons. One is that the heat might damage a part in the circuit near the solder joint and not be detected until in flight. Two, it would be easier to repair the circuit in flight, by replacing the board quickly, not needing any soldering. I think they carry backup boards for the critical components (at least I hope they do).
written by JEJ , December 26, 2009
On spacecraft components, I suspect they crimp the connections for two reasons. One is that the heat might damage a part in the circuit near the solder joint and not be detected until in flight. Two, it would be easier to repair the circuit in flight, by replacing the board quickly, not needing any soldering. I think they carry backup boards for the critical components (at least I hope they do).
...
written by JEJ , December 26, 2009
As to soldering in crossover networks, yes, I now think I would want the caps, resistors, and inductors to be soldered. The only reason to use crimp is to save time (manufacturing costs). The wire leads from the parts are long enough to dissipate the heat from the soldering process. Typically, a small forceps is attached to the wire lead between the part and the solder joint. The forceps absorbs the heat. Note that the speakers themselves are often attached to the crossover by crimp connections. Those too should be soldered.
Frankly, I think they should figure out a way to solder chipsets in their sockets. Currently, they are just pressed into the socket so the contacts are by pressure only. However, this would be very tricky, because the contacts are so close to the chips, and chips are very sensitive to heat. But, I bet it would improve the performance significantly.
written by JEJ , December 26, 2009
As to soldering in crossover networks, yes, I now think I would want the caps, resistors, and inductors to be soldered. The only reason to use crimp is to save time (manufacturing costs). The wire leads from the parts are long enough to dissipate the heat from the soldering process. Typically, a small forceps is attached to the wire lead between the part and the solder joint. The forceps absorbs the heat. Note that the speakers themselves are often attached to the crossover by crimp connections. Those too should be soldered.
Frankly, I think they should figure out a way to solder chipsets in their sockets. Currently, they are just pressed into the socket so the contacts are by pressure only. However, this would be very tricky, because the contacts are so close to the chips, and chips are very sensitive to heat. But, I bet it would improve the performance significantly.
...
written by JEJ , December 26, 2009
Funny you should mention coat hangers. I have been wanting to try a little experiment by having solid conductors going from the amplifier speaker posts to the speaker with the two conductors spaced about a foot apart (they would obviously have to be bent in at the ends to reach the binding posts). This should reduce reactive impedance. Just too many things to do, but it's on the list.
written by JEJ , December 26, 2009
Funny you should mention coat hangers. I have been wanting to try a little experiment by having solid conductors going from the amplifier speaker posts to the speaker with the two conductors spaced about a foot apart (they would obviously have to be bent in at the ends to reach the binding posts). This should reduce reactive impedance. Just too many things to do, but it's on the list.
...
written by pf , December 27, 2009
Soldered connections introduce other metals, Lead, Tin etc. that technically should hurt the sound. Don't forget two dissimilar metals have a rectification effect that should cause non-linearity, though in the case of a soldered joint would be infinitesimally small and inaudible.
Mechanical coupling is just as good. In wire wrapped connections on telecom gear, a copper conductor is wound around a square pin. The corners of the pin cut into the surface of the conductor to create a oxygen free connection. Such connections are even used outdoors. If the crimp connection is air-tight, and the cable has good strain relief, everything should be fine.
written by pf , December 27, 2009
Soldered connections introduce other metals, Lead, Tin etc. that technically should hurt the sound. Don't forget two dissimilar metals have a rectification effect that should cause non-linearity, though in the case of a soldered joint would be infinitesimally small and inaudible.
Mechanical coupling is just as good. In wire wrapped connections on telecom gear, a copper conductor is wound around a square pin. The corners of the pin cut into the surface of the conductor to create a oxygen free connection. Such connections are even used outdoors. If the crimp connection is air-tight, and the cable has good strain relief, everything should be fine.
...
written by Willis345 , December 30, 2009
"Please provide URLs to the DBTs you are referring to where they tested those little packets of red, white, and yellow RCA interconnects against higher cost interconnects, including entry level ($40/pair) and high end (e.g., $2,000/pair) interconnects."
Its called google. And before you say anything else why don't you take james randi's listening challenge so you can collect the $1,000,000 prize? You cable people can not longer argue in theory on why a cable will sound different, all this has been put to rest but like the flat earth society you will think what you want to think.
written by Willis345 , December 30, 2009
"Please provide URLs to the DBTs you are referring to where they tested those little packets of red, white, and yellow RCA interconnects against higher cost interconnects, including entry level ($40/pair) and high end (e.g., $2,000/pair) interconnects."
Its called google. And before you say anything else why don't you take james randi's listening challenge so you can collect the $1,000,000 prize? You cable people can not longer argue in theory on why a cable will sound different, all this has been put to rest but like the flat earth society you will think what you want to think.
...
written by John Johnson , December 30, 2009
"It's called Google"
OK, so like this one found by Google?
http://tech.yahoo.com/blog/null/65929
"Put to rest"
I don't think so.
"flat earth society"
What about your flat brain?
Actually, in your defense, I am not convinced that cables always make a difference. I think that there are so many variables, we may never know the answer. Our own DBT for AC power cables resulted in no audible differences:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html
It may turn out that the connector is the real issue, rather than the wire. And although the telecom gear connections mentioned in one post above may have oxygen free crimping, I think that crimping in audio cable RCA plugs (some use a screw that tightens down on the wire), and in speaker crossover networks, is performed simply with a pair of pliers. Definitely not an oxygen free connection.
written by John Johnson , December 30, 2009
"It's called Google"
OK, so like this one found by Google?
http://tech.yahoo.com/blog/null/65929
"Put to rest"
I don't think so.
"flat earth society"
What about your flat brain?
Actually, in your defense, I am not convinced that cables always make a difference. I think that there are so many variables, we may never know the answer. Our own DBT for AC power cables resulted in no audible differences:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html
It may turn out that the connector is the real issue, rather than the wire. And although the telecom gear connections mentioned in one post above may have oxygen free crimping, I think that crimping in audio cable RCA plugs (some use a screw that tightens down on the wire), and in speaker crossover networks, is performed simply with a pair of pliers. Definitely not an oxygen free connection.
Re: Cables
written by Josuah , January 06, 2010
The biggest problem I have with the cheap interconnects bundled with the DVD player you buy is the lack of shielding and crosstalk/pickup between the two cables (due to their proximity and poor shielding). I've heard this yuckiness happen and it's not good. :(
written by Josuah , January 06, 2010
The biggest problem I have with the cheap interconnects bundled with the DVD player you buy is the lack of shielding and crosstalk/pickup between the two cables (due to their proximity and poor shielding). I've heard this yuckiness happen and it's not good. :(
cable facts
written by fred , January 07, 2010
First of all the crimped vs. soldered is really a theoretical observation meaning that IF all other aspects of the cable are perfect than it might be relevant,but I suspect that crimping could cause more distortion based on the stressing the cable by crimping and soldering avoids this to some extent-but for example if you used a solid copper cable crimped to a solid copper connector that might very well easily beat the same cable soldered using reg solder or even silver solder (there is no copper solder as far as I know). So the point is cables are either designed well or not regardless of being crimped or soldered-I'm glad the author mentioned the study but I doubt it really has any relevance on this cable or any relatively inexpensive cables. I don't believe in high cost cables unless you have a very high cost or very,very good system i.e. probably in the $2000 range or above for all components and then probably a tube amp etc.-and EVEN then a well designed cable will still give you good sound so you should only buy a cable that costs say $200-$1000 if you really WANT to spend lots of money on cables (in 99.99% of cases my belief is that cables that cost $5000,$10,000 etc are a RIP OFF and because of the likely lack of morality of the seller they could very well be a cheap cable just repackaged).I do have some respect for companies like audioquest because they do use good materials and don't seem to claim that they're cables are the best thing ever invented-but I will still never buy a $1000 dollar cable-at least not until I spend ALOT more on my system and I try every sub $200-$500 cable first.So anyway I use blue jeans stranded and solid copper interconnects which are superb (the stranded I like better because it is much easier to use-not as stiff requiring me to pull out my stand from the wall, and only maybe 5% less good than the solid which doesn't really matter because the are great cables already).I'm using impact acoustic sp cables which only cost about $30 a pair and are amazingly SUPERB sounding and WELL MADE.If you don't mind building your own sp. cables (I tried with cheap bananas and didn't get a great result soundwise,but i was using cheap stranded cable) you could try with the blue jeans cable which IS a superb cable but is very stiff just fyi (although not too thick so it's ok). I used to have a pair of inexpensive $60-$80 pair audioquest sp cables that did sound great. I used to use knu konceptz's cheapest blue interconnects which are probably the BEST cheap cable you can buy (if you want to go really cheap)-though I haven't tried impacts ic's-I did buy those cheapo cables from that place that used to at least advertise here and elswhere and they were too tight couldn't even get them on my equipment and their sp cable was cheap and ok but also nothing groundbreaking. Yeah so based on just a guess I suspect these emotiva cables are maybe as good as or a step up from impact acoustic cables(the cheaper ones) and possibly even a small leg up on blue jeans (although I'm really just giving them the benefit of the doubt here)-they look like well made and probably good sounding cables,especially for their price point. By the way I use an nad amp and ascend acoustic speakers and a very high quality but older cd player and the results are amazing-i would suggest with the nad and ascend speaker combo you use a very high quality cd source like a cd pl. in the $300-$1000 range or an external dac (not to advertise but you should look on ebay for dac's as well-I own a non os dac which is superb but overall I also like os dac's if they are high quality-there is a seller on ebay who sells their non os dac's for $200 and up and recently released a $500 os dac as well-no I don't own them just a tip).My nad,ascend system doesn't have great bass (bookshelves)-ok but not great in volume or depth but they are the best speakers I've ever used I like them better than an older base model b&w and base model monitor audio that I used to own and regreted selling until now-and I like them better than my wharfedales which I haven't used in awhile but having said all that if you want more bass in a resonably priced floorstand speaker wharfedales are great and if you want a more "open sounding" high end speaker the monitor audio's are great(the ascends are in between the wharfedales and monitor audio's as far as being dark sounding-I couldn't use a denon 2ch high end receiver with wharfedales because it was way too smooth-although to be fair the denon HT receiver I used for awhile was more dynamic and not too smooth) but if you want neutrality,accuracy,soundstage,and enjoyable sounding speakers the ascends are maybe the best you can buy at their price point and somewhat above (they do require about 50-100 hours for the soundstage to open up though so be a little patient).
written by fred , January 07, 2010
First of all the crimped vs. soldered is really a theoretical observation meaning that IF all other aspects of the cable are perfect than it might be relevant,but I suspect that crimping could cause more distortion based on the stressing the cable by crimping and soldering avoids this to some extent-but for example if you used a solid copper cable crimped to a solid copper connector that might very well easily beat the same cable soldered using reg solder or even silver solder (there is no copper solder as far as I know). So the point is cables are either designed well or not regardless of being crimped or soldered-I'm glad the author mentioned the study but I doubt it really has any relevance on this cable or any relatively inexpensive cables. I don't believe in high cost cables unless you have a very high cost or very,very good system i.e. probably in the $2000 range or above for all components and then probably a tube amp etc.-and EVEN then a well designed cable will still give you good sound so you should only buy a cable that costs say $200-$1000 if you really WANT to spend lots of money on cables (in 99.99% of cases my belief is that cables that cost $5000,$10,000 etc are a RIP OFF and because of the likely lack of morality of the seller they could very well be a cheap cable just repackaged).I do have some respect for companies like audioquest because they do use good materials and don't seem to claim that they're cables are the best thing ever invented-but I will still never buy a $1000 dollar cable-at least not until I spend ALOT more on my system and I try every sub $200-$500 cable first.So anyway I use blue jeans stranded and solid copper interconnects which are superb (the stranded I like better because it is much easier to use-not as stiff requiring me to pull out my stand from the wall, and only maybe 5% less good than the solid which doesn't really matter because the are great cables already).I'm using impact acoustic sp cables which only cost about $30 a pair and are amazingly SUPERB sounding and WELL MADE.If you don't mind building your own sp. cables (I tried with cheap bananas and didn't get a great result soundwise,but i was using cheap stranded cable) you could try with the blue jeans cable which IS a superb cable but is very stiff just fyi (although not too thick so it's ok). I used to have a pair of inexpensive $60-$80 pair audioquest sp cables that did sound great. I used to use knu konceptz's cheapest blue interconnects which are probably the BEST cheap cable you can buy (if you want to go really cheap)-though I haven't tried impacts ic's-I did buy those cheapo cables from that place that used to at least advertise here and elswhere and they were too tight couldn't even get them on my equipment and their sp cable was cheap and ok but also nothing groundbreaking. Yeah so based on just a guess I suspect these emotiva cables are maybe as good as or a step up from impact acoustic cables(the cheaper ones) and possibly even a small leg up on blue jeans (although I'm really just giving them the benefit of the doubt here)-they look like well made and probably good sounding cables,especially for their price point. By the way I use an nad amp and ascend acoustic speakers and a very high quality but older cd player and the results are amazing-i would suggest with the nad and ascend speaker combo you use a very high quality cd source like a cd pl. in the $300-$1000 range or an external dac (not to advertise but you should look on ebay for dac's as well-I own a non os dac which is superb but overall I also like os dac's if they are high quality-there is a seller on ebay who sells their non os dac's for $200 and up and recently released a $500 os dac as well-no I don't own them just a tip).My nad,ascend system doesn't have great bass (bookshelves)-ok but not great in volume or depth but they are the best speakers I've ever used I like them better than an older base model b&w and base model monitor audio that I used to own and regreted selling until now-and I like them better than my wharfedales which I haven't used in awhile but having said all that if you want more bass in a resonably priced floorstand speaker wharfedales are great and if you want a more "open sounding" high end speaker the monitor audio's are great(the ascends are in between the wharfedales and monitor audio's as far as being dark sounding-I couldn't use a denon 2ch high end receiver with wharfedales because it was way too smooth-although to be fair the denon HT receiver I used for awhile was more dynamic and not too smooth) but if you want neutrality,accuracy,soundstage,and enjoyable sounding speakers the ascends are maybe the best you can buy at their price point and somewhat above (they do require about 50-100 hours for the soundstage to open up though so be a little patient).
cable facts (pt 2)
written by fred , January 08, 2010
I just wanted to follow up on a few things I mentioned in my post above. I OWN a non os dac but I am currently using a high end dvd player for cd's (I think a $200+ dac would sound better but it sounds good at lower volumes where I normally listen so I haven't upgraded my dvd pl yet)-the non os dac I own is an mhdt entry level model ($400) which is a very high end product but would sound better with bigger speakers than the ascends because bass articulation and depth is it's strong point,as well as superb detail(but at the expense of higher distortion as all non-os dacs,except maybe the newer ones which have jitter reducers,the mhdt is a vry purist product so it's probably not for most including maybe me even though I do like it)-with a really good amp in the $1000 range and floorstanding speakers also in that range it would probably be ideal (although I should mention it sounded great with a yamaha receiver (not vintage but recent model).Also my nad amp is the current model 315 but even though it plays pretty loud because of the ascends efficiency you couldn't go wrong with more power even though technically you don't need it. Also I actually think I spoke about the ascend speakers being bass light-they actually have more bass than most other bookshelves I've heard but they don't have that "enclosure tuned reverberant" bass that most speakers have (it's a legitimate way to design a speaker but I tend to think it obscures the midrange usually)-so the ascends actually have better bass definition than any speaker I've heard but they don't have that low,deep,tight sounding bass that some speakers have-instead they have extremely articulate bass down to their natural level and then a lower bass which to me with most recordings sounds somewhat airy (I won't say woofy because that would suggest it's not actually deep which it is) but you could say it is just a tad woofy sounding but the tradeoff is you can hear all the detail in the lower bass and midrange that the ascends excel in. Okay now back to the emotiva cables-I think they will probably fit in perfectly with similiarly priced cables from the company's I mentioned above (especially impact's higher priced cables and blue jeans interconnects).I really suspect that the emotiva cables are not only priced VERY WELL (meaning almost or maybe a bargain you might say) but I have little doubt that they would perform similiarly and maybe better than more expensive cables in some cases-and I'm not just saying that to be nice. I think there is enough space in the marketplace for all good cables but generally speaking in my somewhat humble opinion you don't have to spend more than $50-$100 for a very high quality interconnect pair and more than $100 or $200 max for a very high quality set of say 8-10 ft speaker cables. I don't believe in knocking expensive cable manufacturers IF they can show me how they're materials firstly,and design and build quality are worth what they are charging but as I've said before everyone should realize that a well designed and well made cable should be just as good with any price equipment or put simply your cable cost should be about 10-20%(or therabouts) of your entire system purchase-the reason being that even if a cable is however much better than another cable as it's price would suggest your ELECTRONICS are also generally only as good as their price so whatever extra detail a $1000 set of cables might bring out in recordings, if your amp is less than say $5000 the extra spent on the cables would probably be better spent on better electronics and continuing to use the $100-$200 worth of cables you already own. And speaking of electronics I would defnitely start at the lower end as well-for example if you haven't heard an nad or an emotiva I definitely wouldn't buy anything much more expensive than that unless you are very sure you want it.
written by fred , January 08, 2010
I just wanted to follow up on a few things I mentioned in my post above. I OWN a non os dac but I am currently using a high end dvd player for cd's (I think a $200+ dac would sound better but it sounds good at lower volumes where I normally listen so I haven't upgraded my dvd pl yet)-the non os dac I own is an mhdt entry level model ($400) which is a very high end product but would sound better with bigger speakers than the ascends because bass articulation and depth is it's strong point,as well as superb detail(but at the expense of higher distortion as all non-os dacs,except maybe the newer ones which have jitter reducers,the mhdt is a vry purist product so it's probably not for most including maybe me even though I do like it)-with a really good amp in the $1000 range and floorstanding speakers also in that range it would probably be ideal (although I should mention it sounded great with a yamaha receiver (not vintage but recent model).Also my nad amp is the current model 315 but even though it plays pretty loud because of the ascends efficiency you couldn't go wrong with more power even though technically you don't need it. Also I actually think I spoke about the ascend speakers being bass light-they actually have more bass than most other bookshelves I've heard but they don't have that "enclosure tuned reverberant" bass that most speakers have (it's a legitimate way to design a speaker but I tend to think it obscures the midrange usually)-so the ascends actually have better bass definition than any speaker I've heard but they don't have that low,deep,tight sounding bass that some speakers have-instead they have extremely articulate bass down to their natural level and then a lower bass which to me with most recordings sounds somewhat airy (I won't say woofy because that would suggest it's not actually deep which it is) but you could say it is just a tad woofy sounding but the tradeoff is you can hear all the detail in the lower bass and midrange that the ascends excel in. Okay now back to the emotiva cables-I think they will probably fit in perfectly with similiarly priced cables from the company's I mentioned above (especially impact's higher priced cables and blue jeans interconnects).I really suspect that the emotiva cables are not only priced VERY WELL (meaning almost or maybe a bargain you might say) but I have little doubt that they would perform similiarly and maybe better than more expensive cables in some cases-and I'm not just saying that to be nice. I think there is enough space in the marketplace for all good cables but generally speaking in my somewhat humble opinion you don't have to spend more than $50-$100 for a very high quality interconnect pair and more than $100 or $200 max for a very high quality set of say 8-10 ft speaker cables. I don't believe in knocking expensive cable manufacturers IF they can show me how they're materials firstly,and design and build quality are worth what they are charging but as I've said before everyone should realize that a well designed and well made cable should be just as good with any price equipment or put simply your cable cost should be about 10-20%(or therabouts) of your entire system purchase-the reason being that even if a cable is however much better than another cable as it's price would suggest your ELECTRONICS are also generally only as good as their price so whatever extra detail a $1000 set of cables might bring out in recordings, if your amp is less than say $5000 the extra spent on the cables would probably be better spent on better electronics and continuing to use the $100-$200 worth of cables you already own. And speaking of electronics I would defnitely start at the lower end as well-for example if you haven't heard an nad or an emotiva I definitely wouldn't buy anything much more expensive than that unless you are very sure you want it.
...
written by fred , January 09, 2010
I just wanted to say that if anyone takes my recommendations for speakers and amps you can ignore all my talk of dac's etc if you want. The ascend speakers sound just fine,in fact excellent with my onkyo current model 5 disc changer-actually in some ways they sound better because the standard 1 bit cd player has less distortion than the high end d/a converters and dvd/cd players I own (it's worth noting though that the newer dac converters and some if not most higher end cd players now have jitter reducing circuits which should cut down on the amount of distortion which should theoretically at least place them above all the players I own). I mention all this for two reasons-to point out that the ascend speakers show the difference in distortion of cd/dac's more than most speakers (which I think is good),and I also mention this to bring the dicussion back around to cables and how much distortion they have.I am happy with my current cables so I'm not going to buy the emotiva cables right now (though I might in the future) but I would be curious to compare them to others as far as distortion is concerned. I believe distortion can be measured by ear in two ways (at least)-one how clear the sounds are, and two how irritating the sound is w. one cable vs. another-i.e does it keep the beat as well and sound as "natural" as another cable-you have to be familiar with your equipment to do this test and of course you have to use the same exact equipment setup with both cables you are comparing. Just so I don't get any criticism I will mention that this test is not in any way scientifically accurate because as just one example if your audio system is better with certain frequencies and one cable is more detailed in those frequencies for example it could skew the accuracy. However on the other hand if you know for a fact that the treble in your system is very detailed (I won't say accurate)and one cable is clearly less detailed than another or simply sounds bad in the treble that might be a good indication (though not absolute proof) that one cable is worse than another. Bottom line-worse cables tend to sound worse and better cables tend to sound better,just like electronics in my opinion. My feeling is good equipment generally sells itself unless people don't know what they are doing in terms of matching equipment (and at least as far as stores are concered my somewhat limited experience tells me most don't know how or don't take the time to properly match components for the best sound). Having well designed and well made cables though makes it much easier to tell a good component from and ok or even bad component generally.
written by fred , January 09, 2010
I just wanted to say that if anyone takes my recommendations for speakers and amps you can ignore all my talk of dac's etc if you want. The ascend speakers sound just fine,in fact excellent with my onkyo current model 5 disc changer-actually in some ways they sound better because the standard 1 bit cd player has less distortion than the high end d/a converters and dvd/cd players I own (it's worth noting though that the newer dac converters and some if not most higher end cd players now have jitter reducing circuits which should cut down on the amount of distortion which should theoretically at least place them above all the players I own). I mention all this for two reasons-to point out that the ascend speakers show the difference in distortion of cd/dac's more than most speakers (which I think is good),and I also mention this to bring the dicussion back around to cables and how much distortion they have.I am happy with my current cables so I'm not going to buy the emotiva cables right now (though I might in the future) but I would be curious to compare them to others as far as distortion is concerned. I believe distortion can be measured by ear in two ways (at least)-one how clear the sounds are, and two how irritating the sound is w. one cable vs. another-i.e does it keep the beat as well and sound as "natural" as another cable-you have to be familiar with your equipment to do this test and of course you have to use the same exact equipment setup with both cables you are comparing. Just so I don't get any criticism I will mention that this test is not in any way scientifically accurate because as just one example if your audio system is better with certain frequencies and one cable is more detailed in those frequencies for example it could skew the accuracy. However on the other hand if you know for a fact that the treble in your system is very detailed (I won't say accurate)and one cable is clearly less detailed than another or simply sounds bad in the treble that might be a good indication (though not absolute proof) that one cable is worse than another. Bottom line-worse cables tend to sound worse and better cables tend to sound better,just like electronics in my opinion. My feeling is good equipment generally sells itself unless people don't know what they are doing in terms of matching equipment (and at least as far as stores are concered my somewhat limited experience tells me most don't know how or don't take the time to properly match components for the best sound). Having well designed and well made cables though makes it much easier to tell a good component from and ok or even bad component generally.
Aircraft/Spacecraft use crimps vs solder
written by GN , January 11, 2010
" ... Just a comment that on most all high reliability spaceflight and aircraft connectors, the conductors are crimped rather than soldered. Soldering is only used where there isn't a choice. This is not necessarily because of electrical performance, but reliability; crimped contacts are much less likely to break at the joint. ..."
Yes, but WHY are they less likely to break at the joint? I'll give you a clue. Automobile connectors are crimped. RV connectors are crimped. Motorcycle connectors are crimped. Heavy Equipment connectors are crimped.
See any common thread here? They are all vehicles. They all suffer tremendous vibration loads ... aircraft are so bad that some professional photographers who flew on assignment a lot would send the cameras to service once a year ... to re-tighten the screws, which back out due to vibrational loads and the small size (few threads engaging).
Bare copper wire is quite flexible and malleable. When soldered, the point where the wick ends, which is stiff, and the bare copper begins, which is soft, tends to be the point of failure in high vibration environments. Aircraft and Aerospace vehicles also use other wire materials for even higher-stress areas ... silver clad steel is common ... to be even more vibration resistant.
None of these stresses should be major issues in a home audio system. Vibrations do exist, but nowhere near the level of even a single trip for groceries in the family wagon.
There is no debate amongst auto or aviation engineers which has the best conductivity. They don't use the method with the best conductivity, though, because conductivity is less important than reliability under high vibration environments.
written by GN , January 11, 2010
" ... Just a comment that on most all high reliability spaceflight and aircraft connectors, the conductors are crimped rather than soldered. Soldering is only used where there isn't a choice. This is not necessarily because of electrical performance, but reliability; crimped contacts are much less likely to break at the joint. ..."
Yes, but WHY are they less likely to break at the joint? I'll give you a clue. Automobile connectors are crimped. RV connectors are crimped. Motorcycle connectors are crimped. Heavy Equipment connectors are crimped.
See any common thread here? They are all vehicles. They all suffer tremendous vibration loads ... aircraft are so bad that some professional photographers who flew on assignment a lot would send the cameras to service once a year ... to re-tighten the screws, which back out due to vibrational loads and the small size (few threads engaging).
Bare copper wire is quite flexible and malleable. When soldered, the point where the wick ends, which is stiff, and the bare copper begins, which is soft, tends to be the point of failure in high vibration environments. Aircraft and Aerospace vehicles also use other wire materials for even higher-stress areas ... silver clad steel is common ... to be even more vibration resistant.
None of these stresses should be major issues in a home audio system. Vibrations do exist, but nowhere near the level of even a single trip for groceries in the family wagon.
There is no debate amongst auto or aviation engineers which has the best conductivity. They don't use the method with the best conductivity, though, because conductivity is less important than reliability under high vibration environments.
sp's and crimping vs. soldered
written by fred , January 14, 2010
A note on speakers.I am probably going to sell my ascends and purchase a pair of tweak audio waf speakers. Why ? because i listen to only music and I believe based on my knowledge and listening to the ascends and other speakers I own that the tweak audio sp's will give me a slightly more "natural" and detailed midrange (mostly because they use a different crossover philosophy).Put it this way-the ascends are actually almost perfect in what they do-create a studio monitor type sound with extremely detailed bass and very good to excellent mids and treble.They do this by using a superb woofer,a very well designed crossover,and a very good tweeter-as well as building the speakers very well including bracing it well inside (and made in the usa+ a great warranty so I don't have to worry about that)-they are also VERY efficient so my 40w nad amplifer sounds as powerful as ANY ! amplifier I've ever used with any speaker.However I have come to believe that my nad might actually be too detailed for the ascends,in the treble at least-I think the ascends would match perfectly with a denon-they are also very detailed but a little less detailed in the treble as the nad is-I also tried the ascends with an onkyo stereo receiver and it sounded good as well-better than the HK receiver IMO by the way.But the one thing about the ascneds is they are sort of like getting a small,very accurate 6in subwoofer as well as a mid speaker and tweeter in the same box ! But the sound is not as "natural" as speakers that have simpler designs-this is mostly important if you listen to music only like me and care less about bass or even treble than having the most natural midrange. If I was setting up a home theater I would use ascends myself because of their amazing bass definition and superb overall sound-as i said even though they are only 2 way sp's they sound more like a speaker with a small but superb woofer and seperate smooth mid and detailed tweeter.I actually don't think you could get better bass definition and depth in any bookshelf speaker less than $500pr min and possibly much more (note: the bass depth is somewhat dependent on source-cd,dvd-cd pl,dvd pl).So-if you say listen to only music and want the most natural midrange at the EXPENSE of lots of bass detail and definition then you might prefer a different speaker but if like most people you want an all around speaker for music or HT-the ascends are excellent. Oh I would be remiss if I didn't mention the emotiva speakers which might be the solution to my dillema if I wasn't willing to give up my bass. I have no doubt the emotiva speakers are superb and probably worth every penny.By the way re:crimping vs.soldered I enjoy my blue jeans cables (which I think are crimped) very much and I have heard of soldered cables failing-even in the home (I have no doubt about the emotiva's strength though)-people do sometimes mistreat cables even in the home and a solder will always have some chance of failing even if it's only a 1% or less chance. What determines whether a cable is crimped or soldered though is the connector that is used on that cable and what the manufacturer recommends for that connector.SO as I said before--you should buy a cable from a trustworthy source and practically speaking it really shouldn't matter if it is crimped or soldered as long as it is a well made cable-and soundwise it shouldn't really matter either except in extreme cable designs.
written by fred , January 14, 2010
A note on speakers.I am probably going to sell my ascends and purchase a pair of tweak audio waf speakers. Why ? because i listen to only music and I believe based on my knowledge and listening to the ascends and other speakers I own that the tweak audio sp's will give me a slightly more "natural" and detailed midrange (mostly because they use a different crossover philosophy).Put it this way-the ascends are actually almost perfect in what they do-create a studio monitor type sound with extremely detailed bass and very good to excellent mids and treble.They do this by using a superb woofer,a very well designed crossover,and a very good tweeter-as well as building the speakers very well including bracing it well inside (and made in the usa+ a great warranty so I don't have to worry about that)-they are also VERY efficient so my 40w nad amplifer sounds as powerful as ANY ! amplifier I've ever used with any speaker.However I have come to believe that my nad might actually be too detailed for the ascends,in the treble at least-I think the ascends would match perfectly with a denon-they are also very detailed but a little less detailed in the treble as the nad is-I also tried the ascends with an onkyo stereo receiver and it sounded good as well-better than the HK receiver IMO by the way.But the one thing about the ascneds is they are sort of like getting a small,very accurate 6in subwoofer as well as a mid speaker and tweeter in the same box ! But the sound is not as "natural" as speakers that have simpler designs-this is mostly important if you listen to music only like me and care less about bass or even treble than having the most natural midrange. If I was setting up a home theater I would use ascends myself because of their amazing bass definition and superb overall sound-as i said even though they are only 2 way sp's they sound more like a speaker with a small but superb woofer and seperate smooth mid and detailed tweeter.I actually don't think you could get better bass definition and depth in any bookshelf speaker less than $500pr min and possibly much more (note: the bass depth is somewhat dependent on source-cd,dvd-cd pl,dvd pl).So-if you say listen to only music and want the most natural midrange at the EXPENSE of lots of bass detail and definition then you might prefer a different speaker but if like most people you want an all around speaker for music or HT-the ascends are excellent. Oh I would be remiss if I didn't mention the emotiva speakers which might be the solution to my dillema if I wasn't willing to give up my bass. I have no doubt the emotiva speakers are superb and probably worth every penny.By the way re:crimping vs.soldered I enjoy my blue jeans cables (which I think are crimped) very much and I have heard of soldered cables failing-even in the home (I have no doubt about the emotiva's strength though)-people do sometimes mistreat cables even in the home and a solder will always have some chance of failing even if it's only a 1% or less chance. What determines whether a cable is crimped or soldered though is the connector that is used on that cable and what the manufacturer recommends for that connector.SO as I said before--you should buy a cable from a trustworthy source and practically speaking it really shouldn't matter if it is crimped or soldered as long as it is a well made cable-and soundwise it shouldn't really matter either except in extreme cable designs.
Emotiva A/V Cables
written by DRG , January 21, 2010
JEJ,
After having completed your review, do you think I should buy Kimber Timbre (price range) cables or will the Emotiva X-series RCA cables will provide same performance.
written by DRG , January 21, 2010
JEJ,
After having completed your review, do you think I should buy Kimber Timbre (price range) cables or will the Emotiva X-series RCA cables will provide same performance.
...
written by JEJ , January 21, 2010
Kimber uses WBT connectors which are copper and brass (brass is an alloy of copper and zinc). Emotiva's connectors also contain brass. So, you should just make your choice based on price. They are both good products.
written by JEJ , January 21, 2010
Kimber uses WBT connectors which are copper and brass (brass is an alloy of copper and zinc). Emotiva's connectors also contain brass. So, you should just make your choice based on price. They are both good products.
Hey, Fred, try a paragraph break here and there.
written by zebra , January 25, 2010
Makes you look a little less ridiculous when you use paragraph breaks, dude.
written by zebra , January 25, 2010
Makes you look a little less ridiculous when you use paragraph breaks, dude.
...
written by JEJ , January 25, 2010
January 25, 2010 - I went back and compared some Nordost Valhalla interconnects with the Emotiva interconnects. Take a look at the graphs.
written by JEJ , January 25, 2010
January 25, 2010 - I went back and compared some Nordost Valhalla interconnects with the Emotiva interconnects. Take a look at the graphs.
Brass?
written by joebob biggs , January 26, 2010
Audioquest and other mfrs did all this termination testing years ago. Copper, gold and silver are the metals that do the least damage to the transmitted signal and therefore cables made out of and terminated with these metals sound better. Good quality IC's are soldered at the termination with silver solder. Good quality speaker cables are crimped (read cold weld) at their terminations. Mechanical, set screw, box lug, etc. terminations add resistance/impedance which is not good for audio signals. Good quality power cables generally use mechanical terminations and crimp terminations. I have seen (and heard) some power cables using solder terminations and while they may sound good or bad, solder is not good for various safety reasons in a power cord.
In the end, the proof is in the hearing.
written by joebob biggs , January 26, 2010
Audioquest and other mfrs did all this termination testing years ago. Copper, gold and silver are the metals that do the least damage to the transmitted signal and therefore cables made out of and terminated with these metals sound better. Good quality IC's are soldered at the termination with silver solder. Good quality speaker cables are crimped (read cold weld) at their terminations. Mechanical, set screw, box lug, etc. terminations add resistance/impedance which is not good for audio signals. Good quality power cables generally use mechanical terminations and crimp terminations. I have seen (and heard) some power cables using solder terminations and while they may sound good or bad, solder is not good for various safety reasons in a power cord.
In the end, the proof is in the hearing.
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VIZIO VF551XVT 55" LCD LED HDTV
John E. Johnson, Jr. - Monday, 21 December 2009
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John E. Johnson, Jr. - Monday, 21 December 2009
VIZIO has introduced a 55" (diagonal) LCD HDTV (1080p) that uses 960 LEDs in 80 control blocks as the backlighting. The control blocks change their brightness according to the brightness of the part of the scene that they responsible for illuminating. The result is absolute black, where there is supposed to be black. We measured a contrast ratio of nearly 300,000:1. It also has 240 Hz refresh rate (120 Hz plus backlight scanning) which allows for interpolated frames in between actual frames, and this delivers smooth motion during panning or objects moving across the screen. Best of all, it is available (street price) at $1,899 which is not an increase over last year's technology at the same screen size.
Comments (21)
De-interlacing and upscaling?
written by Kieran , December 21, 2009
Did you do any tests or analysis of the built-in de-interlacing and upscaling abilities of this TV? This is one area where the more expensive brands have generally out-done Vizio in the past. I'm very curious if Vizio has improved it's image processing with this latest set. There is still a lot of non-HD content out there on TV, as well as DVD collections that need de-interlacing and upscaling.
written by Kieran , December 21, 2009
Did you do any tests or analysis of the built-in de-interlacing and upscaling abilities of this TV? This is one area where the more expensive brands have generally out-done Vizio in the past. I'm very curious if Vizio has improved it's image processing with this latest set. There is still a lot of non-HD content out there on TV, as well as DVD collections that need de-interlacing and upscaling.
not to mention 1080i de-interlacing
written by Kieran , December 21, 2009
I meant to add that in addition to all the SD content still out there, 1080i HD is very common, and good de-interlacing of 1080i broadcast content can make all the difference in viewing quality. Any comments on the Vizio's skills at properly de-interlacing 1080i/60 film based TV content to 1080p/24? And what about how it does with video-based 1080i de-interlacing?
written by Kieran , December 21, 2009
I meant to add that in addition to all the SD content still out there, 1080i HD is very common, and good de-interlacing of 1080i broadcast content can make all the difference in viewing quality. Any comments on the Vizio's skills at properly de-interlacing 1080i/60 film based TV content to 1080p/24? And what about how it does with video-based 1080i de-interlacing?
...
written by JEJ , December 21, 2009
Upscaling from standard def appeared to be OK, nothing exceptional though. Obviously, it will look much better when playing a standard def DVD rather than watching standard def satellite TV programming where the compression artifacts are so bad. However, just about every TV station I watch has their programming on both a standard def channel and a high def channel, so these days, I don't watch standard def TV programs at all. I don't rent or purchase standard def DVDs. Only Blu-ray. The question of how well a TV does with standard def programming is becoming less and less important. It is sort of like saying, "Well, the turntable and cartridge may have sounded great with LPs, but how does it perform with the old 78 RPM records?" Programming in 1080p is starting to be broadcast, and all the new Blu-ray players can output the signal in 1080p so no de-interlacing is necessary in the HDTV itself.
It has a film mode, where it recognizes 24p. I am not sure what it does with that signal when the Smooth Motion technology is turned on. All I could tell when it was turned on, was that everything looked like a live TV broadcast. It was strange to watch an old 1940's black & white movie that way.
written by JEJ , December 21, 2009
Upscaling from standard def appeared to be OK, nothing exceptional though. Obviously, it will look much better when playing a standard def DVD rather than watching standard def satellite TV programming where the compression artifacts are so bad. However, just about every TV station I watch has their programming on both a standard def channel and a high def channel, so these days, I don't watch standard def TV programs at all. I don't rent or purchase standard def DVDs. Only Blu-ray. The question of how well a TV does with standard def programming is becoming less and less important. It is sort of like saying, "Well, the turntable and cartridge may have sounded great with LPs, but how does it perform with the old 78 RPM records?" Programming in 1080p is starting to be broadcast, and all the new Blu-ray players can output the signal in 1080p so no de-interlacing is necessary in the HDTV itself.
It has a film mode, where it recognizes 24p. I am not sure what it does with that signal when the Smooth Motion technology is turned on. All I could tell when it was turned on, was that everything looked like a live TV broadcast. It was strange to watch an old 1940's black & white movie that way.
SD isn't entirely dead yet
written by Paul , December 21, 2009
I'm not sure I'd want to watch movies that look live a "live TV broadcast", but that's a matter of personal preference.
Performance with SD DVD, at least, is still important, though, as I (and I'm sure I'm not alone) have not replaced my rather large SD collection with BD (or the still occasionally available HD DVD) for every title where it can be done, nevermind all those that are not yet available on anything but SD DVD. In the TV's defence, though, I suspect that those who are particularly concerned with SD DVD performance would hook up a player that is competent in that area (one of the reasons I still keep my HD DVD player in regular use).
Some processing is still needed for 720p/1080i to 1080p and the TV is critical for that processing for most people. Would you say this TV scores well in that particular area?
written by Paul , December 21, 2009
I'm not sure I'd want to watch movies that look live a "live TV broadcast", but that's a matter of personal preference.
Performance with SD DVD, at least, is still important, though, as I (and I'm sure I'm not alone) have not replaced my rather large SD collection with BD (or the still occasionally available HD DVD) for every title where it can be done, nevermind all those that are not yet available on anything but SD DVD. In the TV's defence, though, I suspect that those who are particularly concerned with SD DVD performance would hook up a player that is competent in that area (one of the reasons I still keep my HD DVD player in regular use).
Some processing is still needed for 720p/1080i to 1080p and the TV is critical for that processing for most people. Would you say this TV scores well in that particular area?
...
written by JEJ , December 21, 2009
I watched a lot of 720p (football games) from satellite broadcasts, which was scaled to 1080p in the VIZIO, and the image was superb.
written by JEJ , December 21, 2009
I watched a lot of 720p (football games) from satellite broadcasts, which was scaled to 1080p in the VIZIO, and the image was superb.
1080p broadcast?
written by Kieran , December 21, 2009
I know of zero 1080p broadcast HDTV signals. I don't believe there are any, anywhere in the country. If there are, they are not part of the ATSC spec., and they are likely pseudo-HD, i.e. very high compression. I don't count streaming online content which claims to be 1080p. It may have a resolution of 1080p, but with the compression effects, rarely looks as good as 720p, let alone 1080p.
To me the gold standard of HDTV programming is still a strong OTA broadcast signal, both 720p and 1080i. Lots and lots of it is 1080i, and lots of that is film-based material, prime for de-interlacing to 1080p (reference Brian Florian's excellent article on 1080p). Doing it right or wrong can make a huge difference in viewing experience. Vizio doesn't have a great history of doing it right. Since they've obviously improved a lot in other areas, I'm hoping they've improved in this area, too.
Since you bought and now own this TV, it would be great, when you have time, if you could investigate & report on the de-interlacing and upconversion abilities of the TV.
written by Kieran , December 21, 2009
I know of zero 1080p broadcast HDTV signals. I don't believe there are any, anywhere in the country. If there are, they are not part of the ATSC spec., and they are likely pseudo-HD, i.e. very high compression. I don't count streaming online content which claims to be 1080p. It may have a resolution of 1080p, but with the compression effects, rarely looks as good as 720p, let alone 1080p.
To me the gold standard of HDTV programming is still a strong OTA broadcast signal, both 720p and 1080i. Lots and lots of it is 1080i, and lots of that is film-based material, prime for de-interlacing to 1080p (reference Brian Florian's excellent article on 1080p). Doing it right or wrong can make a huge difference in viewing experience. Vizio doesn't have a great history of doing it right. Since they've obviously improved a lot in other areas, I'm hoping they've improved in this area, too.
Since you bought and now own this TV, it would be great, when you have time, if you could investigate & report on the de-interlacing and upconversion abilities of the TV.
the thing is...
written by cory , December 21, 2009
Needing a good scaling/deinterlacing solution in a TV is mostly a thing of the past, basically any Oppo BD/DVD player you buy will do better than most TVs, as long as the TV will take a 1080p signal without changing it.
written by cory , December 21, 2009
Needing a good scaling/deinterlacing solution in a TV is mostly a thing of the past, basically any Oppo BD/DVD player you buy will do better than most TVs, as long as the TV will take a 1080p signal without changing it.
...
written by JEJ , December 22, 2009
I think there are some 1080p24 movies being broadcast on DirecTV and Dish Network. I don't know about Comcast. So, those don't need de-interlacing. But, as I said, the standard 1080i and 720p material that I watched looked excellent, after having been scaled to 1080p by the VIZIO. This particular model has a lot of features including general noise reduction separate from MPEG noise reduction (reduces mosquito noise). It also has color settings for the high IRE separate from the low IRE, so you can tweak the TV with far more exactness than other HDTVs out there. I think the noise controls could be very useful in making SD programming look better, but you have to remember that noise reduction and image sharpness are at the opposite ends of the scale. Reducing noise also reduces sharpness. I watch the VIZIO with all noise reduction turned off.
written by JEJ , December 22, 2009
I think there are some 1080p24 movies being broadcast on DirecTV and Dish Network. I don't know about Comcast. So, those don't need de-interlacing. But, as I said, the standard 1080i and 720p material that I watched looked excellent, after having been scaled to 1080p by the VIZIO. This particular model has a lot of features including general noise reduction separate from MPEG noise reduction (reduces mosquito noise). It also has color settings for the high IRE separate from the low IRE, so you can tweak the TV with far more exactness than other HDTVs out there. I think the noise controls could be very useful in making SD programming look better, but you have to remember that noise reduction and image sharpness are at the opposite ends of the scale. Reducing noise also reduces sharpness. I watch the VIZIO with all noise reduction turned off.
...
written by Michael , December 22, 2009
Is the "smooth motion" option defeatable? Maybe I'm old fashioned, but the "smooth" motion activated with films looks completely unnatural with this option in place. My eyes are accustomed to the look of 24fps film and I feel it adds to the experieince of the film - the smooth motion I find distracting.
written by Michael , December 22, 2009
Is the "smooth motion" option defeatable? Maybe I'm old fashioned, but the "smooth" motion activated with films looks completely unnatural with this option in place. My eyes are accustomed to the look of 24fps film and I feel it adds to the experieince of the film - the smooth motion I find distracting.
1080p broadcasts
written by JM7043 , December 22, 2009
At least one of the satellite broadcast systems is outputting 1080p...DirectTV I think.And within the next 24 months 2160p HDTV will start coming into the consumer marketplace at prices well below the current $70k. Keeping up with the Jones' just keeps getting harder in A/V.
written by JM7043 , December 22, 2009
At least one of the satellite broadcast systems is outputting 1080p...DirectTV I think.And within the next 24 months 2160p HDTV will start coming into the consumer marketplace at prices well below the current $70k. Keeping up with the Jones' just keeps getting harder in A/V.
Settings
written by Claude , December 23, 2009
Could you post the settings after calibration? That woulde be great.
written by Claude , December 23, 2009
Could you post the settings after calibration? That woulde be great.
Wattage usage after calibration
written by vfrjim , December 24, 2009
Do you have a kill a watt meter to give the wattage usage after calibration?
written by vfrjim , December 24, 2009
Do you have a kill a watt meter to give the wattage usage after calibration?
Crushing blacks?
written by ws , December 24, 2009
If I am reading the calibrated gamma chart correctly, it looks like it is crushing the blacks. That chart varies quite a bit from your comments touting the black. Maybe you could comment on the shadow details. Having absolute black is great, but not if you crush the heck out of it.
written by ws , December 24, 2009
If I am reading the calibrated gamma chart correctly, it looks like it is crushing the blacks. That chart varies quite a bit from your comments touting the black. Maybe you could comment on the shadow details. Having absolute black is great, but not if you crush the heck out of it.
Calibration Settings?
written by Jim , December 25, 2009
I'm with Claude. I've had this TV for over a month now, and love everything you mentioned about it, but I'm still dealing with what I would call an "orange" push, especially with skin tones. I can turn "Color Enhancement" to Normal and this helps a bunch, but it seems this is artificially dealing with the problem. I'd love to see your color temp settings, as well as all calibrations settings, to achieve the magnificent image that you are enjoying without too many "enhancements".
Thanks,
Jim
written by Jim , December 25, 2009
I'm with Claude. I've had this TV for over a month now, and love everything you mentioned about it, but I'm still dealing with what I would call an "orange" push, especially with skin tones. I can turn "Color Enhancement" to Normal and this helps a bunch, but it seems this is artificially dealing with the problem. I'd love to see your color temp settings, as well as all calibrations settings, to achieve the magnificent image that you are enjoying without too many "enhancements".
Thanks,
Jim
1080p
written by Kieran , December 25, 2009
Sorry I was thinking of OTA as "broadcast" I wasn't thinking of dss. AFAIK, OTA generally has the best bandwidth and picture quality so for broadcast content it is (or should be ) the reference standard.
written by Kieran , December 25, 2009
Sorry I was thinking of OTA as "broadcast" I wasn't thinking of dss. AFAIK, OTA generally has the best bandwidth and picture quality so for broadcast content it is (or should be ) the reference standard.
re: Crushing blacks
written by JEJ , December 25, 2009
The gamma chart shows some of the dark grays being attenuated, but this can be remedied by simply turning up the brightness, because the LED backlighting is in complete control of the IRE 0. With a TV that does not have such great contrast ratio, turning up the brightness would make the black start moving into the gray region. After calibration, I changed the brightness level depending on what I was watching, and the shadow detail improved, without affecting the blacks. This would have shown up on the gamma graph as a lower gamma, with the curve more in the area of 2.2 or so. This is all a matter of preference, as I tend to like a slightly darker image overall.
written by JEJ , December 25, 2009
The gamma chart shows some of the dark grays being attenuated, but this can be remedied by simply turning up the brightness, because the LED backlighting is in complete control of the IRE 0. With a TV that does not have such great contrast ratio, turning up the brightness would make the black start moving into the gray region. After calibration, I changed the brightness level depending on what I was watching, and the shadow detail improved, without affecting the blacks. This would have shown up on the gamma graph as a lower gamma, with the curve more in the area of 2.2 or so. This is all a matter of preference, as I tend to like a slightly darker image overall.
...
written by JEJ , December 25, 2009
The settings I use on the VIZIO after calibration are:
Picture: Standard
Backlight: 55
Brightness: 85 (I turned it up a bit after calibration.)
Contrast: 75
Color: 50
Tint: 0
Sharpness: 6
Noise Reduction: Off
MPEG Noise Reduction: Off
Color Enhancement: Off
Advanced Adaptive Luma: Off
Smart Dimming: On
Color Temperature: Normal
Red: 128
Green: 128
Blue: 128
Red Offset: 132
Green Offset: 134
Blue Offset: 128
Smooth Motion Effect: Off
Real Cinema Mode: Off
written by JEJ , December 25, 2009
The settings I use on the VIZIO after calibration are:
Picture: Standard
Backlight: 55
Brightness: 85 (I turned it up a bit after calibration.)
Contrast: 75
Color: 50
Tint: 0
Sharpness: 6
Noise Reduction: Off
MPEG Noise Reduction: Off
Color Enhancement: Off
Advanced Adaptive Luma: Off
Smart Dimming: On
Color Temperature: Normal
Red: 128
Green: 128
Blue: 128
Red Offset: 132
Green Offset: 134
Blue Offset: 128
Smooth Motion Effect: Off
Real Cinema Mode: Off
...
written by Chris Eberle , December 25, 2009
WS, the calibrated gamma chart does not show crushed blacks. It's a bit below 2.2 in the lower stim levels but not to the point of crushing.
Bear in mind that any gamma measurements made on a display that manipulates levels should be taken with a grain of salt. You're not really seeing what the TV can do gamma-wise unless you turn off the local dimming. I suspect then it would be quite a bit lower than 2.2.
written by Chris Eberle , December 25, 2009
WS, the calibrated gamma chart does not show crushed blacks. It's a bit below 2.2 in the lower stim levels but not to the point of crushing.
Bear in mind that any gamma measurements made on a display that manipulates levels should be taken with a grain of salt. You're not really seeing what the TV can do gamma-wise unless you turn off the local dimming. I suspect then it would be quite a bit lower than 2.2.
Is the "smooth motion" option defeatable?
written by Chris Kane , December 28, 2009
I agree with Michael. It would be deal killer if I couldn't disable the "smooth motion".
ck
written by Chris Kane , December 28, 2009
I agree with Michael. It would be deal killer if I couldn't disable the "smooth motion".
ck
New PRO series
written by Claude , February 07, 2010
I'm holding off to see what the PRO series announced at CES looks like. My huge concern is that this series will not be sold at Costco but "specialty retailers". You would lose out on the extra year warranty and probably no discount off MSRP. Not liking it.
written by Claude , February 07, 2010
I'm holding off to see what the PRO series announced at CES looks like. My huge concern is that this series will not be sold at Costco but "specialty retailers". You would lose out on the extra year warranty and probably no discount off MSRP. Not liking it.
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Monster PowerNet 200 and 300 Kits for Audio and Video Streaming Through Your House AC Wiring
Chris Heinonen - Thursday, 17 December 2009
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Chris Heinonen - Thursday, 17 December 2009
Two years ago, there wasn't a single device in my home theater that required an internet connection. Speed ahead to today, however, and my home theater now needs more internet connections than the rest of my household. Two BD Live Blu-ray Players, a DLNA Receiver, a PlayStation 3, Nintendo Wii, Tivo HD, and a plasma with Internet Widgets all want to be online for either content downloads, media streaming, firmware upgrades, or more, and many of these require a lot of bandwidth to work well. Monster Cable's PowerNet 200 and 300 packages allow you to connect your music and video server to your hi-fi system in another part of the house by using the household AC wiring.
Comments (2)
testing
written by Bob , January 15, 2010
I guess there is no way to test before buying the system? The sales guy told me I could transmit HD video and audio by hooking my DirectTV HD (& HDMI splitter) to one unit and one to my TV on the HD TV on the adjacent patio, both with a HDMI to Ethernet converter.
Does that seem like it would work over my Linksys wireless?
Thanks,
Bob
written by Bob , January 15, 2010
I guess there is no way to test before buying the system? The sales guy told me I could transmit HD video and audio by hooking my DirectTV HD (& HDMI splitter) to one unit and one to my TV on the HD TV on the adjacent patio, both with a HDMI to Ethernet converter.
Does that seem like it would work over my Linksys wireless?
Thanks,
Bob
HDMI over Ethernet
written by ChrisHeinonen , January 16, 2010
Unfortunately, the HDMI to Ethernet converters are just designed to send the signal over a longer distance using Cat5e or Cat6 cable, not to send it over a wired network. Aside from many other issues, wireless just would not have the bandwidth necessary to send a full, uncompressed HDMI signal reliably. There are companies that will be coming out with wireless HDMI solutions this year however.
written by ChrisHeinonen , January 16, 2010
Unfortunately, the HDMI to Ethernet converters are just designed to send the signal over a longer distance using Cat5e or Cat6 cable, not to send it over a wired network. Aside from many other issues, wireless just would not have the bandwidth necessary to send a full, uncompressed HDMI signal reliably. There are companies that will be coming out with wireless HDMI solutions this year however.
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PrimaLuna DiaLogue Two Stereo Integrated Tube Amplifier
Rick Schmidt - Monday, 14 December 2009
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Rick Schmidt - Monday, 14 December 2009
The PrimaLuna brand needs no introduction to the tube-loving community, but I do (did). Though I’ve heard plenty of good sounding tube gear at shops, at various friends’ houses and of course at shows, I generally listen to solid state equipment. So, having the PrimaLuna Dialogue Two here for review was a new, and very pleasant experience.
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