Problems with HDMI

[Admin]

In discussion with some industry engineers, I found that there are some problems popping up with the adaptation of the new HDMI standard. Here is what was discussed:

(1) Some cable TV boxes with HDMI out are not delivering any picture to displays with HDMI inputs.

(2) The current HDMI plug appears not to be as sturdy as anticipated, and there may be a change next year in the design of the plug, and the new plug would not fit in current HDMI sockets.

(3) If you have an HDMI source such as a DVD player, and connect it to your display via HDMI, you may not be able to get 5.1 digital bitstreams to come out of the coaxial or Toslink digital output of the player at the same time as digital video and audio out of the HDMI output.

(4) HDMI is a two-way digital communication, and some displays send a handshake signal to the DVD player that permanently messes up the player's ability to output digital video through its HDMI jack.

(5) HDMI v 1.1 is already hitting the shelves, with v 1.2 on the way, and v 1.3 in the next couple of years (v 1.3 will deliver higher res 5.1 digital audio). What will be the backward compatibility of these versions?

In my own situation, using a DirecTV satellite box with HDMI out to an LCD TV with HDMI in, when I turn off the TV, the satellite box crashes. I have to unplug the satellite box and then plug it back in. I have not solved this problem, except by switching to some other input besides HDMI before turning the TV off. Then, when I turn the TV back on, I switch to the HDMI input for viewing.

I will try and get some engineers to input possible answers to these problems here in the forum.

Editor

[MDS]

I've heard of lots of similar problems. I've never used HDMI myself and won't for the forseeable future.

IMO, HDMI was rushed to market as a stop-gap solution to show 'look we have an all digital connection' even though it isn't ready for prime time. Take for example, the new Sony A10/A20 LCD TVs - they have an HDMI input but the manual says you have to also connect the L/R analog audio cables. What good is a digital connection that is touted as being so wonderful because it can carry both audio and video when in reality current implementations only carry video and even that doesn't work reliably.

I believe the same thing about CableCard - what good is it when it is only one-way communication? Just as HDMI 1.1 tvs will be obsolete when 1.2 or 1.3 is adopted, so will tvs with cablecard 1.0.

[Waterbug]

interesting

but isn't HDMI v 1.2 or later 1.3 backward compatible with 1.1?

[Stephen]

interesting

but isn't HDMI v 1.2 or later 1.3 backward compatible with 1.1?

Only with the features of 1.1. To get any of the 1.2 upgrades it would require a hardware change.

[Waterbug]

Only with the features of 1.1. To get any of the 1.2 upgrades it would require a hardware change.
By backward compatible, I mean even though your HDTV HDMI's is ver 1.1, but the video player have an HDMi ver. 1.2, so the backward compatible will make it work from the video player to the hdtv. The new features and changes may not be supported on HDMI ver 1.1. But the old features and specification should work on both.

[cltspecvguy]

HDMI was a little rushed, but still works well. A properly executed box (any equipment with HDMI out) will output DD 5.1 thru the coax/optical simultaneously. I use Toshiba upconversion players at work, and they do it all day.

as for cable box problems, simply turn off all but the native resolutions of ur tv. Make the cable box up/down convert for you. That should fix any problems, and make it flip channels faster.

Caleb

[pers1]

I Have the Philips combo DFR9000/01 DAB Reciver and the DVP900SA/00
I use a HDMI cabel between them.
If I power up the DVD player and the reciver is turned on to TV and I press DVD on the remote the DVD player stops and crashes. Power cord has to be disconnected.

So every time I`m pressing the wrong button on the remote (source) it crashes.

When I tried to hook it up to an Thomson LCD with DVI = DVD-HDMI-Reciver-HDMI to DVI - LCD TV. IT crashed 80% of the time !
I had to Unplugg the HDMI to DVI cabel (the the DVD player crashed) and the reboot the hole system.

So now it`s back to the old analog TV in the bedrom and Coax!


Nice going!

PerS
Norway :(

[Josuah]

HDMI was a little rushed, but still works well. A properly executed box (any equipment with HDMI out) will output DD 5.1 thru the coax/optical simultaneously. I use Toshiba upconversion players at work, and they do it all day.

So, you will get Dolby Digital going out over your HDMI, Coax, and Optical outputs from the Toshiba box? Do you work with other boxes that you also consider properly executed that you've tested to output audio on all interfaces at once?

[dpeters]

"In my own situation, using a DirecTV satellite box with HDMI out to an LCD TV with HDMI in, when I turn off the TV, the satellite box crashes. I have to unplug the satellite box and then plug it back in. I have not solved this problem, except by switching to some other input besides HDMI before turning the TV off. Then, when I turn the TV back on, I switch to the HDMI input for viewing"

I experienced the exact same thing back in February with a digital cable box from Comcast and a brand new Sony Wega tv. Only the connection was DVI not HDMI. I went to set up a brand new Sony Wega tv for a friend because he didn't know how to set it up with a surround sound system. When I looked at the back of the tv I noticed that BOTH the DVI from the cable box and a coaxial cable from the cable box were both connected to the tv. I knew that the coaxial cable was not needed if the DVI output was being used so I disconnected it. Then I discovered that if you turned off the tv the DVI connection would no longer work when you turned the tv back on. You had to 'reboot' the cable box and then turn on the tv. So then I began wondering why the coax cable had been plugged in. It turns out that if you plug the coax cable into the tv the problem goes away ! The comcast guy must have known this so that is why he installed both cables. It is a weird problem. I would be curious to know if this also fixes the problem with the cable box and the HDMI connection that Admin is having.

[Waterbug]

When I looked at the back of the tv I noticed that BOTH the DVI from the cable box and a coaxial cable from the cable box were both connected to the tv. I knew that the coaxial cable was not needed if the DVI output was being used so I disconnected it. Then I discovered that if you turned off the tv the DVI connection would no longer work when you turned the tv back on. You had to 'reboot' the cable box and then turn on the tv. So then I began wondering why the coax cable had been plugged in. It turns out that if you plug the coax cable into the tv the problem goes away ! The comcast guy must have known this so that is why he installed both cables. It is a weird problem. I would be curious to know if this also fixes the problem with the cable box and the HDMI connection that Admin is having.
Interesting. Is the coaxial cable for the antennae or is it for the tv?

[dpeters]

It was the standard coax connection from a cable box to the coax connection on a tv. I assume satellite boxes also have a coax connection to use in place of s-video or component connections.

I wonder if the whole thing is nothing but a grounding problem. When you hook up the coax cable it provides a good ground between the box and the tv and fixes the problem

[sedonalar]

About a year ago I hooked my HD Dish Satellite box via HDMI to my new Pioneer Elite HD 64" CRT big screen. I also had the component cable hooked up and I switched back and forth between the Digital (HMDI) and analog component imput. I found the component picture to be richer with better color saturation. I called Pioneer and I was told, because my Tv (CRT) is analog, I was better off using the component input. I know with all of the digital TV's out now, this may not be a big problem. I am in need of a new receiver, and one having HMDI was my #1 priority; but after hearing about the possible HDMI issues, I will re-think my requirements. Has anyone had any experience with the Pioneer Elite VSX-59txi. I hear that it will be replaced very soon by a newer HDMI capable unit?.

Cheers!

[Jay Trieber]

We are a high-end Custom Installer. I am convinced HDMI is not ready for prime time. This week we (tried to) install a Pioneer PRO1120HD Plasma with a Zenith HD520 satellite receiver. We connected it via the HDMI input to the Plasma, with the SATHD520's DVI putput via the adapter cable provided. Turning on the TV, if it's left in the satellite input, results in snow on the screen for the first 60 seconds or so, until the "handshake" is finished. Sometimes less, sometimes more. Reverting to the component HD output/input results in perfect, immediate, snow-free operation.

We have also had multiple situations where a DVD Player connected via HDMI will work perfectly for a couple of hours (or days) and then abruptly ceases video. Again, component connections are defaulted and work perfectly.

These are examples where Professional installers are obtaining unreliable, unacceptable results. What are average consumers going to do? Manufacturers, you'd better start talking to each other (yeah, right, like that's going to happen) or you will be getting large numbers of returned product.

[colin]

Do you actually go so far as to return the product?

Probably the best way to make them listen.

[Josuah]

A few things bother me about HDMI. First, the spec has been changing and products over the years that have decided to incorporate HDMI may be using an older spec. Second, HDMI seems more processor intensive and may result in some hardware not being able to support HDMI along with other outputs simultaneously. Third, I've seen one TV with an HDMI input claim to support 720p but fail completely when it did. Same TV had trouble locking onto different resolutions over HDMI.

The thing that bothers me the most is HDCP. Because I don't have an HDCP-compliant projector, and I don't plan to buy a new projector anytime soon. But HDCP may be the only way to get some HD content. Or maybe even all HD content. HDCP also means my desire to rip my movies to a media server, as I do with my CDs, will not be so easy. The MPAA will probably start getting less money from me if that happens. And I'm currently a heavy DVD purchaser at several a month.

[BIC]

My HDMI has been OK for almost a year. I have a Toshiba 52HMX94 DLP with 2 HDMI and use a TWC Scientific Atlanta 8300 HD Cable PVR. From the start, I have used the HDMI from the cable box along with two coax connections. One coax bypasses the cable box but goes thru VCR then to TV. The other coax comes from cable box for use in POP split screen.

I have only ever used this configuration. Don't know if I would have problem if coax not connected. Did note one interesting thing. With TV off, I set cable box on a channel so if I missed start of program, I could rewind it. I was late, turned on TV, but no recorded live TV. Apparently, box knew TV was off and didn't record live TV.

Only problem I have is no DD 5.1 out from box to receiver. Worked one time, then stopped. Get digital signal though optical cable, but not DD. TV also has optical out from HDMI input. Same thing, get digital sound at receiver but not DD. Suspect box problem and will swap boxes one of these days.

[rewjr]

I have an Hitachi TX-100 720P LCD with DVD-D input which I use an adapter for 10m HDMI cable running from my HDTV Cable SA PVR .

I also bought an GEFFEN HDMI F to F adapter to join my HDMI 3m cable coming from my Samsung HD-950 upconverting DVD player .

When starting my system I always have to turn on my PJ first wait for it to display boot screen then I turn on my PVR or DVD player which ever I am using at the time . This sequence allows everything to work otherwise I get a HDCP flag error...

I have no issues with optical DD/DTS 5.1 audio outputs working at the same time as HDMI video is being displayed..It is a marked improvement in color accuracy and resolution compared to older analogue component output..

[Kevin C Brown]

The problem isn't HDMI itself. It's unfortunately how different companies implement it. Now maybe the HDMI specs aren't tight enough to make that happen all the time between different manufacturers, but it's obvious to me that correctly implemented HDMI components can successfully work together.

But imagine if DVD players outputting Dolby Digital signals only sometimes worked with receivers and pre/pros accepting those signals... ;)

[jspradling]

I'm a relative newby to Home theater stuff. Just got into it this year. This is a great site, lots of good info.

I have a Samsung HL-P4674W DLP TV and the TWC SA 8300 DVR. All I have is the HDMI cable between the two. I also have a DVD/VCR combo (analog) player hooked to the TV using the composite cable. It's all been working fine since I brought it all home. I love it. Thinking of adding a Panasonic S77 next. Then the speakers.

Last night I put a coax between the DVR and the DVD/VCR so I could record a show from the DVR memory to a VCR tape for a friend. Still no problems. I guess I got lucky.

Also, my DVR records if the TV is on or off.

I'm also very happy with my Harmony remote control. Easy to program, and I only have one remote to keep up with.

js

[BIC]

I partially figured out the Dolby Digital/HDMI problem with the Time Warner Cable/Scientific Atlanta 8300 HD PVR/Cable Box.

On the box menu is a choice for digital audio output. You can choose HDMI, in which case the DD goes to the TV or you can choose DD, which then goes to the receiver via optical out. Only one or the other will work at one time.

If you choose HDMI, sound that goes to the receiver is digital, but not DD and you do get sound through both the TV and the receiver. If you choose DD, the receiver gets DD, but NO sound goes to the TV.

The TV has an optical out to the receiver. I'm guessing that is to get the HDMI DD in to the TV back out to the receiver so you can get DD to both simultaneously. Unfortunately, I am not getting the DD back to the receiver from the TV.

[Admin]

Well, remember all the problems we had with DVD players when they first arrived on the shelf? Many DVDs would not play, and manufacturers had to issue updates in the EPROM code to get them to play. All new sophisticated technology has its problems at first, but HDMI will be fantastic once it's all working properly. One cable and you get HD video and 5.1 surround sound. I still have to turn off my HDTV in a certain way to keep the HD satellite box from crashing, but as long as I know what to do, it works fine. I love HDMI. Not hassle-free, but terrific picture and sound.

JJ

[Adil M]

When it comes to TWC they have 2 sets of software w/ their boxes. If not updated the newer non "passport" software has issues.

TWC pisses me off b/c they recycle boxes deemed defective w/ other customers hoping they won't have issues. What a stupid policy. Their installer who told me thinks so as well.

[Julio Bro!]

I think the "handshake" thing is critical on HDMI application and could be a way for manufacturers to force buyers into having their brand of equipment. I know that's not the best strategy, but we often see examples with computer stuff, like with Compaq or Microsoft...there's a tendency for exclusiveness, specially with new equipment or software.

Also, there is the "let's give them something, doesn't matter if it won't work with every brand or not as good; we'll fix it later." This is a more used strategy and the clear evidence is the launching of a new software or game. It's a well known fact that new versions of the Windows OS will be released with lots of problems and then fix it on the run.

A few years ago this was not the case with A/V equipment, most brands made sure the systems and features worked, and that they would with any other brand. The competition was on quality, functionality, and compatibility, not really on features or who has the latest first. It's a shame this is happening, the consumer is the one that always suffers with these situations and it's not fair; most of us have to wait until most problems are solved to then buy a good unit.

For example, I ordered a brand new LG DVD player, which everyone understood was OK because the previous version was OK. When I tried the HDMI connection with my Toshiba TV, the image began flashing and never stopped. This didn't happen on the other connections, just HDMI.

I returned it for another new one and the same thing happened, with different cables. Then I tested on a friend's JVC and it worked, so in conclusion, there was an apparent compatibility problem...but why? Isn't HDMI a standard and why would it fail with brand new equipment?

I had to exchange it for a Panasonic player which was great right from the start...I tend to say that Panasonic is the Toyota of electronics...and usually I'm right.

I think is important for us to check on the reviews magazines and sites, like this one, do on new equipment and technologies. And I suggest, to these same sources, to begin testing on new tech functionality and brand compatibility, cause apparently there's an issue here. The only way to solve it, is to make manufacturers compete on this area...and maybe, in time, we will be able to trust them again.

[tezster]

I'm a home theatre newbie and didn't realize until I stumbled onto this thread how unproven of a technology HDMI is. I have an LG-531 DVD player which is connected via HDMI to a 50" Panasonic DLP - it's one of those up-converting players, and apparently it doesn't upconvert when using component; only HDMI.

Anyway if I don't turn on the DVD and TV in the proper sequence i.e. TV has to be turned on first, with the HDMI input selected, then the DVD player is turned on, I don't get a signal. I'm currently breaking in my speakers, so I'm just repeatedly playing an audio CD in surround mode. Obviously the TV is off during this time, which means if I want to plop in and watch a DVD in this scenario, I have to turn the DVD off, then turn on the TV, switch to HDMI, then turn on the DVD. A little bit quirky but other than that I haven't had any problems. BTW there is an optical out running to the receiver and there's no problems getting the picture and sound to work simultaneously.

[Naddsat]

Hi,
I have just finished to set up my new system connecting a
Scientific Atlanta 8300 HD Cable PVR
to a brand new Pioneer Elite 74TXVi receiver
and Pioneer 50 inch plasma 5060.
The problem: The cable box indicates a HDCP problem and wil not let me use the HDMI output to connect to the receiver.

Otherwise, my DVD player (Pioneer Elite 79AVi) works just fine via it's HDMI output to the receiver

The whole idea was to use only three HDMI cables for the complete set-up but I have to use component cables from the cable box to the receiver (and coax audio cable)

Josuah (cable box forum) suggested I had a problem with the handshake sequence: try cable box last. Might work I'll try this tonight.

Any other suggestion?

[Julio Bro!]

Hi Naddsat:

I agree with Joshua, as I read and see more about HDMI apparently the "receiver" unit must be ON first and then the "transmitter".

So, TV first, A/V Receiver second, and video unit (DVD, Cable,Sat) last. This should be the first way to test the equipment.

But even doing this perfectly won't avoid a handshake issue. If this is the case, contacting the company or manufacturer should be the next step to see if there's a way to upgrade, update, or improve on the HDMI communication.

[Amanda]

I read with interest your above entry. It is true that HDMI needs much more improvement. There will always be problems surrounding introductory technologies.

However, as a vendor of upscaling DVD players (www.neodigits.com), we have to say that we have not had very negative feedback from our customers on the issues you have listed above. Not to deny that there are problems surrounding the current HDMI standard, but could it be that their occurrences are not too commonplace?

Moving forward I anticipate that as engineers become more familiar with the technology and what they can do with it, these issues will be rectified – the question now is just when.

Roy Ping, Chief Technical Officer, NeoDigits

[Julio Bro!]

I read with interest your above entry. It is true that HDMI needs much more improvement. There will always be problems surrounding introductory technologies.

...

Moving forward I anticipate that as engineers become more familiar with the technology and what they can do with it, these issues will be rectified – the question now is just when.

Roy Ping, Chief Technical Officer, NeoDigits

Hello Mr. Ping:

The thing is that HDMI is fine, improvement would go towards increasing bandwidth/bitwidth and transmission speed. If it works great with one brand, then it should work great with all.

Varying quality of image processing and movement is OK in regards to how good is the processor and the equipment you design with. But communication between equipments shouldn't be a problem for anyone. Either you use the HDMI standard or your toying with your own, and that goes with any other technology.

If you're toying then there's false advertising and that's taking advantage of the consumer. Very bad for business reputation. I hope that changes soon.

[Josuah]

There are several revisions of the HDMI spec. The TV you bought might be compatible with one spec, while the player you bought compatible with another. There is still room for design decisions, even if you follow the spec. For example, 480i over HDMI is not in the spec, but what if the TV says it will receive 480i over HDMI? Should you make that choice available to the customer?

And there are other tricky things going on as well, with HDMI, that are not necessarily cleared up in the spec. Such as the key handshake behavior, or what to do when the cable is disconnected during playback, etc.

Just because there is a spec, doesn't mean the world is happy.

IIRC, there's an old story about the first successful implementation of the TCP/IP stack. After the spec came out, several AT&T engineers tried to implement it. Unfortunately, they never got it working 100% right. Somewhere along the line, AT&T started working with UC Berkeley, and a single person at Berkeley got the implementation 100% right. When the AT&T guys asked what he did, he said "I followed the spec." And that's where the BSD TCP/IP stack came from.

Anyway, I hope my message is getting across here.

Disclaimer: My details of the story may be incorrect, as I can't find a resource on Google for specifics.

[dpeters]

The latest issue of Sound And Vision magazine had an article that said they found problems with HDMI also but only with set top boxes. DVD players never had a problem. This seems to be what we are discovering here also. Hmmmm.

[Julio Bro!]

Yes Joshua, I understand what you mean. But I'm not talking about problems with the specs for the standard. If we were talking computers...every new version of an equipment is usually compatible with the older version. Although some greedy manufacturers/designers decide that their equipment won't be backwards compatible so you have to buy the new one. I think that's bad business. I hope any new version of HDMI IS backwards compatible; it should be.

It used to be that every equipment with a feature or input would work regardless of how old or new. All cassettes would play on cassette players, all players would be heard on any receiver. Commercial CDs always work on players, you'll get sound. S-Video, component, optical, coax, even DVI and VGA work on any receiver...and I think all TVs (haven't heard about DVI failing).

So, what's happening with HDMI? Why does a $500+ Denon DVD player ALWAYS works with ANY TV? Simple...they do it right.

So, why a $150 DVD player with, supposedly, the latest HDMI won't work with any TV? Simple...they did it wrong or didn't want to do it right.

I think we, consumers, are becoming too forgiving. Because something is "cheap" we allow room for error, failing, and malfunctions. And you see, they notice this...in order to obtain the latest or the cheapest we may trade on functionality or quality. And so, they take our money.

What I expect in a "cheap" equipment is less features, connections, and probably less fidelity and image quality. But if it has an input, it MUST work, and if it has an output, it MUST work with any other equipment that has the same connection. Otherwise don't include it.

Fellas, it's our money, let's demand it's worth. If something fails, then return it, get one that works; don't matter if it costs a bit more, let them know you're not trading on basics and cheap design.

[ANGEL 35]

Hi,
I have just finished to set up my new system connecting a
Scientific Atlanta 8300 HD Cable PVR
to a brand new Pioneer Elite 74TXVi receiver
and Pioneer 50 inch plasma 5060.
The problem: The cable box indicates a HDCP problem and wil not let me use the HDMI output to connect to the receiver.

Otherwise, my DVD player (Pioneer Elite 79AVi) works just fine via it's HDMI output to the receiver

The whole idea was to use only three HDMI cables for the complete set-up but I have to use component cables from the cable box to the receiver (and coax audio cable)

Josuah (cable box forum) suggested I had a problem with the handshake sequence: try cable box last. Might work I'll try this tonight.

Any other suggestion? I have the same problem Denon DVD player works fine. Its when the 8300HD box is hooked up to the receivers HDMI cable out to my Sony 34XBRtv Iget HDCP problem Its the 8300HD that gives you the handshake problem :confused: IM with TWC in New York City they cant tell you anything :rolleyes:

[Naddsat]

As was suggested by a few members, I tried every possible sequence of starting the components: no luck.

I turned to Pioneer and they responded that they know they (and some other component manufacturer) have problems with the 8300 scientific Atlanta cable box using the HDMI output. They are sure that the problem lies with the 8300, they will try to come up with a software patch but they doubt they will be able to do so.

I am enclined to think they are right: after seeing the mess that the 8300 did after the hour change recently (advanced time to normal) one have to realise that this unit is totally subpar (read scrap).
And they dont have the excuse that this is a cheap unit: it is their most expensive model!

Thanks anyway to all that tried to help.

[Admin]

I contacted Leslie Chard, who is President of the organization that licenses HDMI, about the questions raised in this thread. Here are his responses:

1) Some cable TV boxes with HDMI out are not delivering any picture to displays with HDMI inputs.



We have heard complaints that some cable TV boxes are not working correctly when used in conjunction with an A/V receiver (but will typically function correctly when connected directly to a TV/monitor). Investigation of some of these devices reveals that this is caused by an error in the way these devices implement HDCP (HDCP is a content protection system that is nearly always implemented in HDMI). Specifically, some of those boxes do not support "HDCP Repeaters" such as an A/V Receiver or switch. The same is likely true of all such failures. This is not an HDMI-specific problem (as we have seen the same problem in DVI outputs as well). We believe that this may be a problem in the initial versions of these products, and in some cases there is new firmware available that fixes this issue in HDMI (newer versions may already have this fix.). We have contacted the manufacturers to try to get a more complete and direct resolution of any problems.



We suggest that users contact their cable operator and request the new software to address this bug. Additionally, please note that HDCP is not licensed (or required) by HDMI, but is licensed by Digital Content Protection, LLC, a subsidiary of Intel (www.digital-cp.com (http://www.digital-cp.com/)). We also urge users to contact digital-cp if they suspect that they are having problems with HDCP implementations such as this issue.



(2) The current HDMI plug appears not to be as sturdy as anticipated, and there may be a change next year in the design of the plug, and the new plug would not fit in current HDMI sockets.



We have occasionally received requests for the connectors to have a higher removal force for situations where the cable may be pulling on the connector (e.g. long cable lengths or in equipment racks). We have been looking at new/latching connector designs to remedy this problem, but this would be backwards compatible with the current connector – there’s no reason for it not to be. We have also have seen a few connectors that were out of spec (e.g. not the right size, too much over-molding, etc), which led to compatibility issues and, in some cases, connector damage. However, we are commencing a connector certification program to help ensure that all Adopters use compliant connectors.



Otherwise, I am not sure where this question is coming from - we have a strong interest in maintaining backwards compatibility.



(3) If you have an HDMI source such as a DVD player, and connect it to your display via HDMI, you may not be able to get 5.1 digital bitstreams to come out of the coaxial or Toslink digital output of the player at the same time as digital video and audio out of the HDMI output.



HDMI places no restrictions on any other digital or analog interface or any restrictions on the behavior of the product other than the behavior of the HDMI output (or input) itself. If a source device chooses to shut down other outputs, then that is a manufacturer product design decision (and I suggest probably a poor decision at that).



(4) HDMI is a two-way digital communication, and some displays send a handshake signal to the DVD player that permanently messes up the player's ability to output digital video through its HDMI jack.



We have not heard of this problem, and from a technical perspective it seems nearly impossible for a signal from the TV/receiver that would “permanently” mess up HDMI. We are investigating one particular high-end DVD player that may have a bug that causes it to crash when it reads certain unexpected data from the TV. However, all the problems that we have seen are implementation issues that the manufacturers can easily fix.



(5) HDMI v 1.1 is already hitting the shelves, with v 1.2 on the way, and v 1.3 in the next couple of years (v 1.3 will deliver higher res 5.1 digital audio). What will be the backward compatibility of these versions?



All new versions of HDMI are backwards compatible with all previous versions of HDMI; we have no plans to add any new functions that will break this backwards compatibility. This is very important for us. Each new version of the specification describes one or more new optional features, but all of the functions of the previous version are still supported in the new versions of the HDMI specification.



The only reason a user may wish to upgrade HDMI is if they wish to use one of the new optional features that the new specs provide. In this case, the user should not be looking for "HDMI 1.2" or "HDMI 1.1" labels, but for descriptions of the exact features that they want. This is because, while HDMI enables functionality, manufacturers are the ones that choose which functionality to implement.



For instance, from HDMI 1.1 to HDMI 1.2, One Bit Audio support was added - the type of audio used for SuperAudio CD. Prior to HDMI 1.2, some SACD players could play a disk in SACD format, and send the audio to an audio amplifier over HDMI, but it could only send the data in the more common PCM format, after having converted from the native SACD format. With HDMI 1.2’s new One Bit Audio option, the SACD player can now send the native SACD data to the audio amplifier over HDMI, as long as that amplifier supports One Bit Audio as well. If the amplifier is not capable of handling One Bit Audio then the player can still send PCM.



This example points out a couple of things: even though the player has been designed to take advantage of the new optional feature in HDMI 1.2, it is still backwards compatible with PCM-only amplifiers. In addition, because this new feature is optional for all devices, a particular device could implement “HDMI 1.2” without implementing all of the new optional features. If you want to have the audio transmitted in One Bit Audio format then you need to verify that the player and receiver are "HDMI One Bit Audio" capable.

[Josuah]

(3) If you have an HDMI source such as a DVD player, and connect it to your display via HDMI, you may not be able to get 5.1 digital bitstreams to come out of the coaxial or Toslink digital output of the player at the same time as digital video and audio out of the HDMI output.

HDMI places no restrictions on any other digital or analog interface or any restrictions on the behavior of the product other than the behavior of the HDMI output (or input) itself. If a source device chooses to shut down other outputs, then that is a manufacturer product design decision (and I suggest probably a poor decision at that).

While it is certainly true the spec does not place this restriction, hardware limitations may force a manufacturer to disable audio from other outputs. Particularly if the digital audio is not Dolby Digital or DTS to begin with. I do not think it is fair to say it is a poor decision when the decision may be forced due to technical reasons. Or legal restrictions.

[sunseeker]

ping to admin. will you be listing some of these features in new reviews re 1,1 and 1.2 and passing audio from a DVD player or a SSP in a 5.1 or 7.1...
Who is going to be lucky enough to get a new D-2 for review?

[Admin]

Several of the Senior Editors have Anthem D1s and are getting them upgraded to D2s, so the review will have comments from everyone. For DVD player, SSP, and receiver reviews, if the HDMI version is listed in the product specs, we will mention it in the reviews. I don't know which version is in the D2.

JJ

[sunseeker]

thanks, we can all ways count on you for the facts, and little fluff. :D :D

[lienly]

if what you say is true, Sony really moved backward.......... :eek: HDMI w/o sound....... :( 1 advantage HDMI over DVI is HDMI carries video and audio, so just 1 cable is enough.

have tried Panny s97, JVC DHX2, Sharp HRD300 (all JP spec) on my Tosh 62HM84, I all get pretty PQ with sound. :D

HDMI 1.0 = video + L/R.
HDMI 1.1 = 1.0 + DVD-A.
HDMI 1.2 = 1.1 + SACD.
HDMI 1.3 = 1.2 + ?

Take for example, the new Sony A10/A20 LCD TVs - they have an HDMI input but the manual says you have to also connect the L/R analog audio cables.

[meridianG91]

I have tried LCD and Plasma screens with my Meridian G91 over HDMI (and a copy protected disk) - does not work. Eg. Phillips 37PF7320 and latest Pioneer 43" plasma. I keep going into stores wanting to buy 2 screens and go away empty-handed leaving the retailer aghast that I have such an expensive "broken" player.

So, anyone successfully playing copy-protected disks on a G9,1 over HDMI, to an LCD/Plasma HD Ready screen ?

Having read this thread it would appear that screens are being produced with HDMI that do not include the HDCP handshake.
*********** If so, what is the manufacturer thinking ?

Players also have MacroPoorVision copy protection implemented on component output. On screens that don't recognise this we see "noise" spoiling the picture every so often.
*********** Are screens still being produced where this happens ?

It's easy to buy a screen/player and subsequently discover that HDMI does not work even though both items are touted as having "HDMI" ? Which is correct of course, but it's unlikely to work!
************Why is the consumer being lied to by omission ?

Rats!

[Josuah]

Blame the studios for making your life a headache. They're treating you like the criminal, even though you're the one who's buying their stuff. And of course people who get around this for a living (e.g. professional movie pirates) have the money and resources to disregard this anyway.

The Meridian G91 data sheet mentions HDCP, so I assume it supports HDCP. From your post, I assume you can play non-HDCP content just fine. You may simply have to purchase non-HDCP content, as if you're trying this with a bunch of displays and it just doesn't work, sounds like the G91 is broken. You might be able to get Meridian to deliver a firmware fix.

[Geo]

Blame the studios for making your life a headache. They're treating you like the criminal, even though you're the one who's buying their stuff. And of course people who get around this for a living (e.g. professional movie pirates) have the money and resources to disregard this anyway.

Hey, a new member here starting out with something controversial...Let's face it, the record companies only started treating some end users like criminals after millions BECAME criminals by stealing music through illegal file sharing downloads and burning CD's for friends. Those of us who do not steal music or movies do not feel as if we are treated like criminals. I agree that the commercial studios engaged in disgusting business practices and predatory pricing before iTunes came along. But this still does not justify theft as a response. Stealing is stealing. Copyright infringment is stealing. Illegal file sharing is stealing. How do these people live with themselves?

Josuah, I've enjoyed this thread and your helpful HDMI posts. I've already learned a lot. Thanks! I just came over from AVS Forum, and their is nothing on HDMI over there that is as well researched, succinct and to the point.

[anthonymoody]

I very much appreciate the responses from the HDMI folks - thanks for chiming in guys (and thanks Secrets for getting the info to us!) - even if the answers weren't quite as satisfying as some would like.

In my case, my cable box has major problems going through my pre/pro even though my DVD player has no such problems. I understand that HDMI (or HDCP for that matter) can't necessarily be expected to "force" all mfrs to properly implement the ability to use a repeater (which ultimately everyone will, rather than switch at the display).

But on the other hand, why can't they? Why don't they make that functionality part of the requirement for ALL source components with HDMI outputs? I mean come on - in 2006 there will be very few receivers *without* HDMI switching. Why not make sure that source mfrs build their stuff to work in real work (i.e. switched) HDMI settings?

TM

[Josuah]

I'm sure they're trying to do the right thing, but sometimes mistakes are made or perhaps a manufacturer just tried and tried but had to make a compromise somewhere because two of the products they tested with behaved differently. Who knows.

My beef with the content companies is that all their attempts are costing me money (in terms of more expensive products and tax dollars via government regulation and lobbying) and their goal is to remove my fair use rights. Sure, I'm no more entitled to my fair use rights if I buy content that specifically disallows it, and so I won't buy such content. But the content companies are no more entitled to blanket legal protection of their content from fair use.

All this additional technology and the legal changes are moving content management and access in a direction I do not like. And I certainly would be a criminal for doing things like accessing my songs remotely, or digitizing a DVD so I can play it off my computer without needing to load the original disc, if I were to play by all the rules they want me to. Technically it is illegal for me to play a DVD back in a Linux computer. Or use my DVD player to play discs from a different region.

[pepar]

I contacted Leslie Chard, who is President of the organization that licenses HDMI, about the questions raised in this thread. Here are his responses . . .
Excuse me, but isn't this like asking the fox why some of the chickens are missing body parts while others are simply missing? His is an industry organization that is supported by the industry. He is going to spin things in the most favorable way possible and minimize the problems. I'm surprised, shocked even, that he comments on, much less criticizes, any member manfacturer's design decisions. The users who are having the problems are where the rubber meets the road and know darn well there are problems.

[kento]

I must now admit that I made the mistake of falling for the HDMI "all digital" talk. I had heard of the problems some were having with DirecTV, DVD, etc. hookups using HDMI connections, but I figured that those problems were worked out when I bought my most of my system components, and I figured that keeping the signal all-digital would provide for the best picture. I don't have much interest in copying movies, so the HDCP didn't really bug me that much. So when I bought my Panasonic TH50PHD-7UY plasma, I ordered the HDMI plug-in input boards for my Denon DVD player and DirecTV HD Tivo. Immediately I noticed that if I don't turn on the sources before the Panasonic, there are "handshake" problems between the components; if I turn on the sources first, then the TV, no problems...until now. After 8 months of somewhat trouble-free operation, I am now suffering continual signal fall-outs; the Panasonic screen will suddenly go black and read "no signal", and the only step that will bring back the video is by turning the Panasonic off and back on. At the exact same time (or it seems), my Denon now also suffers the same problem, but on a much more frequent scale. At this point, I can only look at the HDMI as the cause of this problem. I will probably go with component connections now, unless someone has any suggestions that could help me with this problem.

Sorry if this is in the wrong section of the forum, but I thought that the thread title best fit my intended post.

[Geo]

...My beef with the content companies is that all their attempts are costing me money (in terms of more expensive products and tax dollars via government regulation and lobbying) and their goal is to remove my fair use rights...

Josuah:

Pardon me for getting a bit riled here, but as a commercial photographer, I must take issue with this view. You are overstating a simplistic and terribly innacurate characterization of Digital Rights Management (DRM) tools like HDCP. I don't really believe for a minute that content company's goals are to remove fair use rights, although I do agree that they are being eroded as a result of the use of DRM tools and the difficulties of inventing a new digital commerce system from scratch. But really, content owners WANT people to reuse our content in as many ways as possible, and we want to earn a fair payment for each commercial use. So, content owners are merely trying to protect their copyrights by licensing the use of creative works and limiting how they can be used commercially.

When you "buy" a software program, a song, a movie, a photograph or a piece of art, most people receive a copy of the original tangible document, or a digital file, and a copyright license defining the personal use rights allowed. You do not "own" it like you own most tangible goods. You cannot make an illegal copy and redistribute it for commercial gain or in a way that deprives the creator of a fair payment for uses that go beyond your own personal use. However, even today, many fair uses are bundled into most basic copyright licenses.

But your argument conveniently ignores the fact that many people (though certainly not all) do steal software, music, movies and photos by copying CDs /DVDs to redistribute them to friends or by engaging in illegal file sharing on the Internet (without paying the creator a licensing fee). If everyone were knowledgeable about copyright law -- and completely honest -- DRM would not be necessary. But with the realities of life, content providers have no choice but to protect their creative works -- and their ability to earn a living. Surely you'll acknowledge that some middle ground is necessary to protect owner's rights.

This is just the very beginning of the age of the digital delivery of content. Sooner or later, content providers will find reasonable middle ground that balances protecting owner's copyrights with fair use rights. Until then, until DRM systems are perfected, and until illegal file sharing is under control, we all will have to make compromises, and HDCP is one of those necessary works in progress.

[meridianG91]

Having gleaned information from various sources about HDMI and HDCP I have to conclude:

1. HDMI, without HDCP, equipment is being sold to unsuspecting buyers. This is dishonest and a corrupt practice (to the HDMI-equipment buyer) because all HDMI sources are looking for an HDCP handshake and so will not work without it.
2. Although I am quite capable of modifying firmware, decrypting etc why should I have to ? The equipment should work for the purpose it was bought (a fundamental legal precedent).
3. An industry circumventing these issues (HDCP, regional coding etc) has sprung up. But again, why should I have to spend more money and time to get my G91 player to work with a screen of my choice ?
4. I have seen a US$7,000 screen only work intermittenly with an US$9,000 player. The problem may have been the cable - or was it just the flaky HDCP handshake ? Imagine spending this kind of money and ................
5. At the moment then, if you want a screen to work properly use component - forget HDMI/HDCP for a year ?
6. Manufacturers are unable/unwilling to list/guarantee compatible HDMI equipment

Anyway, instead of buying a couple of screens we refurbished the kitchen instead!

Thanks for the info people.

[meridianG91]

OK, people steal - if not in their judgement, then in someone elses.
Law and justice are often not the same thing.

I have had my work plagiarised in the past - and no matter how it's rationalised when you find this out the theft is a big, big shock! And more.

Some people steal because under no circumstances can they afford to buy.
Others are greedy, and sometimes just ignorant.

The music industry is singularly paranoid, greedy and resistant to change.
The "ban everything" attitude just penalises the honest consumer.

"Please pay the counter" is more motivating than "we prosecute all theft etc etc".

As I see it then, attitudes like "theft paranoia" and "we want a perfect world for world monopolies" are preventing consumers from legitimately using their legitimately purchased products in everyday living situations. Monopoly capital is evil, not the consumer!

[Josuah]

Well, I just wanted to reply to say I disagree with Geo's statement that many publishers are not trying to remove fair use rights. I've seen too many attempts at doing this, and too many games being played to try and milk consumers for the same content multiple times. I also disagree with their attempts at extending copyright and patent expiration times.

I certainly understand and respect your viewpoint, Geo, especially since your livelihood depends on receiving payment in proportional to the use of your work. I also work in an industry where so-called intellectual property or the ability to prevent others from making illegal copies is central to my livelihood: software.

As a side note, while working as a consultant, I always transferred rights to the software and source code to my clients. I maintained the right to reuse that source code myself. But I feel consultants who "lock-in" a client to themselves by retaining all rights to the source code and making the client ask permission every time they want to do something else or derivative with the software is unfair and greedy. It's very much akin to how people patent an idea that they spent a week putting down on paper so as to live off the royalties their entire lives.

[Geo]

As a side note, while working as a consultant, I always transferred rights to the software and source code to my clients. I maintained the right to reuse that source code myself. But I feel consultants who "lock-in" a client to themselves by retaining all rights to the source code and making the client ask permission every time they want to do something else or derivative with the software is unfair and greedy. It's very much akin to how people patent an idea that they spent a week putting down on paper so as to live off the royalties their entire lives.

Hey, we do have something in common...while knowledgable photographers don't usually sign over all rights to clients, most do make other usage rights available at discounted rates, and will customize contracts to add as many rights as the clients needs.

When we do sign over additional rights beyond those for the basic use initially requested, we try to negotiate additional compensation based on the extra usage. We have to since many make 30-to-50% of their annual income repurposing photographs for different clients and markets.

I'm definitely not trying to defend publishers. To tell the truth, many magazine and newspaper publishers in particular are systematically attempting to force freelance photographers to sign away all rights and a very nasty "rights war" is being waged. Many in my profession consider several large daily metro newspapers (the New York Times and Boston Globe to name two), and several national magazines, to be unsavory clients that try to take advantage of small photo businesses at every turn. Many of the best photojournalists in the nation have stopped working for many of these companies.

This is so off-topic, but the difference between our industries is that publishing companies are notoriously cheap, and they do not usually want to pay for full usage rights, yet they want these rights (and even the right to resale our own photographs in competition with us). So, (editorial) photographers end up charging heavily discounted rates for limited rights, and have an a'la carte menu system to price other uses. Like music and movies, it's a commerce system in need of a major overhaul because of new technology.

[Josuah]

That's interesting stuff to hear about. I wouldn't have thought there was a rights war going on, because all that I've heard about photo use and licensing indicated to me that the courts have ruled in favor of the original copyright belonging to the freelance photographer. I didn't realize publications were trying to resell photos they purchase from freelance photographers.

[Geo]

That's interesting stuff to hear about. I wouldn't have thought there was a rights war going on, because all that I've heard about photo use and licensing indicated to me that the courts have ruled in favor of the original copyright belonging to the freelance photographer. I didn't realize publications were trying to resell photos they purchase from freelance photographers.

Yes, it's a real mess. While the courts have ruled as you suggest, most publishing companies have responded with a form of economic pressure, and unlike crews in Hollywood and Music, freelance photograhers and artists are not unionized. So, all newspaper, magazine and book publishers now use similarly-worded, "work-for-hire" contracts that demand all rights in exchange for the same old day-rate payments -- or you simply don't get hired to do a job in the first place. Most haven't increased the fees being paid in over 20 years nor do they offer freelance photographers the work-for-hire benefits extended to employees, such as equipment, health insurance, retirement plans, etc.

Some in the new generation of young, inexperienced freelancers are signing these work-for-hire contracts and relinquishing all rights, just to get published by big media outlets, even as a generation of veteran freelancers is trying to hold ground. The result: the experienced, pure photojournalists are going the way of mom-and-pop stores facing a Wal-Mart. It's a tough transition to this age of modern media.

So, i'm no fan of mega-media publishing companies, be they print, broadcasting, TV & movie companies or music labels. But I recognize that over the long-haul, technologies like HDMI and HDCP are essential to ensure that content is protected so that payments are made, and eventually filtered down to the otherwise starving, creative artists back at the very end (or is it the start?) of the food chain.

[Julio Bro!]

All this "Pirate" activity is also fueled by the known fact that distributors and retailers inflate their prices waaaayyyy higher than it's true value. Also the manipulation of supply and demand, which everyone does contrary to theory.

Supposedly, something that sells a lot or that everyone wants should encourage lower pricing so as to sell more. A lower price will then encourage more people to buy.

Instead, companies put expensive tags on anything new, even if it's a piece of crap. Also, fashion and status create false reputations or believes regarding a product...like forcing a high price on a product that's being the same for 10 years...it's absurd. It's like I've said at times, everyone steals from us consumers; I know for a fact that a store I know someone in, would sell a given equipment 5 and 6 times it's original cost. That's gotta be a steal.

Then I can understand that some people would try the pirate approach at the expense of quality, it would seem fair. More if obtained at full quality, even guaranteed.

See, what companies need is to stop being such thugs. As with my HDMI argument, we shouldn't be the ones paying for and doing R&D or debugging for the manufacturers. "Oh...yes, I'm the only distributor of the next new song from X artist, that everyone is expecting...so, I'm going to charge double or triple the price of the CD...even if only 2 songs are good." That's gotta be a steal.

If all CDs are more or less made the same way, why would one cost $10 and another $20? Take some on-line stores, you may get the $20 CD for maybe $6...and it's not a pirate version. I know it's a different way of selling, but almost 4 times more...

They all should try the "reasonable price" approach first and then work on protection.

I'm all for buying quality products and that's why I don't like piracy. But maybe, someone around has a pirate version of some CD or movie I'm not sure I'll like. I might check it out to see if it's worth the cuadruple price over value.

[Frank J Manrique]

(3) If you have an HDMI source such as a DVD player, and connect it to your display via HDMI, you may not be able to get 5.1 digital bitstreams to come out of the coaxial or Toslink digital output of the player at the same time as digital video and audio out of the HDMI output.

Wow, this seems to explain some of the weird events I've been encountering with a brand new JVC 5U D-VHS deck the last few days...

I connected the 5U deck to a 40" Sony XBR-800 display via its HDMI output to the TV set's DVI input with a HDMI/DVI-D adapter attached to a DVI-D cable I've been using for a while.
An optical Toslink cable was connected bewteen the deck and a Pioneer vx49 Elite surround sound receiver.

Well, I see a video signal displayed on the CRT screen (the deck's menu, etc.) alright, but when I attempt to playback either D-Theater or D-VHS tapes all I get is a graphic warning indicating (#303 on the owners manual) that these tapes does not contain recorded signals when in fact they do! Nothing else I tried has made a difference, so can't view HD taped material via this tape deck. :o
Oh, and I didn't get any sound from the optical connection either (I know it works because I've been using it with a DVD player for sometime now)!

I seeked help from various A/V forums and basically what I was told is that it seems the unit may be defective right out of the box, but try this or that first to see what happens. Just in case, I ordered a new HDMI-to-DVI cable to see if this helps at all.

By the way...the HDMI/DVI-D adapter (is really a "Y" connector with two DVI female jacks on one end and one HDMI male plug at the other end) shows that the DVI connectors have 24 pins, yet the new HDMI-to-DVI cable (just arrived) shows the DVI connector as having only 19 pins! What gives? :confused:

I am brand new to HDMI interfacing so I am not too familiar about its apparent quirky nature, yet this I do know: DVI interconnection is far, far superior to the flimsy HDMI connectors recent vintage A/V components have been saddled with...

-THTS

[Taz]

On the other side both my HDMI hook ups work great. From my 3910-4806 it is excellent for video and audio the SACD is great through HDMI. I also run my DISH 942 through the Denon 4806 to my 72" LCD rear projection and it was a big jump in quality from comp. hook up and also I can not explain this but my OTA HD comes in stronger and better quality.

[MakeitWorkB4Selling]

Josuah:

Pardon me for getting a bit riled here, but as a commercial photographer, I must take issue with this view. You are overstating a simplistic and terribly innacurate characterization of Digital Rights Management (DRM) tools like HDCP.

What about the rights of consumers?

Manufacturers need to quit bold face frickin lying to consumers about HDMI and 1080P or these Bozo's passing the buck back and forth - President of falsehoods. If it doesn't work it shouldn't be sold PERIOD! How many components on any other product are permited to be sold knowingly as a lie to consumers that it fails to work and deliver what it promises - just go over to the AVS Forum and see how Rampant this HDMI crap really is - it's pathetic and that HDMI Standards President should be ashamed. If it doesn't work across the board how are you permitted to sell it? If we buy any other product it isn't permitted and suppose I spent $150 on an HDMI cable or bought a few plus a switcher to discover it doesn't deliver and thus it's worthless and the consumer is sitting there with useless cables for nothing in return?

HDMI in it's present state is nothing but a PITA and as a consumer forking over thousands if DRM can't be worked out why lie to the consumer and then turn around on forums and blame it on the Manufacturer - that's handy for the HDMI Standards guy to turn to - must be nice to just pass the buck and screw the Consumer in the process. If I buy a product I expect the damn thing to deliver it's standards period from all who implement it or suffer the consequences through class action.

Any other product you'd be sued for false advertising. For those that think a fool proof DRM will ever be available and not crackable you need to wake up as it's failed at every turn and what will you do about the Eastern Block or China and the rest of the piracy? Of course in the meantime screw the paying consumer by lying about HDMI and what it delivers. I would guess there are thousands of households with HDMI cables laying around = wasted dollars by the consumer because they were promised the best in PQ and SOUND and it failed! It's a damn good thing our automobiles aren't allowed to do this can you imagine a repeat of this on your car and the safety or performance consequences:

My question to the HDMI Standards Buck Passer is What are you doing to ensure the Conduit for the service is used by consumers WORKS before use or do you feel no responsibility that it actually works as marketed? If someone sold me a "Dimmer" to dim my lights as a conduit interface it damn well better dim my lights or I get my money back. Same principle on a lower scale. If it doesn't work then refund my money or don't sell it in the marketplace until it works with the efficiency of turning a light bulb on. Shouldn't you be certifying that it works with the manufacturers before it's installed for consumer sale and purchase/service? :cool:

[Admin]

When I have worked with DVI, I have found that only single link DVI gives me a picture. Dual link DVI does not seem to work. So, when I buy DVI cables or DVI to HDMI adapters, I make sure the DVI connectors are single link. And, DVI to HDMI conversion has its problems, regardless of the connector. Sometimes, no picture at all. It is going to take some time to fix all these issues.

JEJ

[jeff_hd]

What about the rights of consumers?
Manufacturers need to quit bold face frickin lying to consumers about HDMI and 1080P or these Bozo's passing the buck back and forth - President of falsehoods. If it doesn't work it shouldn't be sold PERIOD! How many components on any other product are permited to be sold knowingly as a lie to consumers that it fails to work and deliver what it promises - just go over to the AVS Forum and see how Rampant this HDMI crap really is - it's pathetic and that HDMI Standards President should be ashamed. If it doesn't work across the board how are you permitted to sell it? If we buy any other product it isn't permitted and suppose I spent $150 on an HDMI cable or bought a few plus a switcher to discover it doesn't deliver and thus it's worthless and the consumer is sitting there with useless cables for nothing in return?


It's too bad I read this thread after the $ plunge. I'm partially quoting "MakeitWorkB4Selling" because he/she is writing exactly the way I feel after trying to hook up my new "hdmi-capable" receiver last night.

Unlike "MakeitWorkB4Selling", I think some of you folks that are long-time gurus in this industry are way too tolerant. This hdmi stuff should be plug and play. I'm going to give my new receiver a few more days and see if I can get hdmi working from comcast box and my dvd player. If I can at least get component/analog working from the two boxes, then hdmi out to the tv I might keep it if I don't have to futz with the "component-boot-order" and all kinds of other rediculous stuff. But, let's not forget Comcast and the "used boxes" that are half broken that they circulate around. I forget who posted that, but they are so right. My DVR from Comcast freezes up with error 207 or 205 all the time. Comcast won't even do anything about it. I've had them out about five times. Once the remote wouldn't work unless I were within ten feet of the unit and the tech was trying to tell me that was normal. Bad idea.
Maybe someone can tell me how our laws forbidding monopoly allows for this? And please don't mention satellite; I'm talking about cable. I have lots of trees, so I have comcast and that's it. I have no recourse with them; none.
This industry is obviously unregulated with no working digital standards; a virtual free-for-all of what I would consider illegal business practices.

[Geo]

...This hdmi stuff should be plug and play...If I can at least get component/analog working from the two boxes, then hdmi out to the tv I might keep it if I don't have to futz with the "component-boot-order" and all kinds of other rediculous stuff...My DVR from Comcast freezes up with error 207 or 205 all the time. Comcast won't even do anything about it. I've had them out about five times...I have comcast and that's it. I have no recourse with them; none...

Actually, we all soon will have other options. 2006 is destined to become the Year of HDTV Internet content delivery. Several companies are preparing to launch full-fledged, downloadable video services via the Internet, most notably Apple Computer and Google (just for starters). Apple will build its video service on the foundation of the successful and easy-to-use iTunes Music Store.

This change will be great for consumers and create more competition for sateliite and cable TV companies. As first generation services, these will not be perfected alternatives, but they will improve over time and represent a historically significant change in personal computers and home entertainment.

Goodle just announced their new service at the Computer Electronics Show in Las Vegas this past week. Watch for hardware and services announcements from Apple beginning on January 10 at MacWorld Expo and make sure you're running RJ-45 (Ethernet) cable to those new home entertainment centers!

[jeff_hd]

Thanks for the note, Geo. I don't research this market much, so was not aware of that. But, the industry needs competition for sure. We need more HD channels/choices too. It's fairly painful to go from an HD channel on a nice 50" plasma down to 4x3 SDTV now.

[Admin]

I think the broadcast industry should offer about a half dozen premium HD channels that have a high bit rate with very little compression. Say three movie channels, a travel channel, documentaries channel, and a news channel. There are many of us who would pay to have that for our big HD displays.

JJ

[jeff_hd]

I like that, but I think I'd rather trade them back a bunch of SDTV news channels and some channels like "Women's Entertainment" for the HD's. My wife would smack me for this one...
:)

[morkys]

I have an issue with the HDMI input of my Hitachi PJ TX200 projector. I have a Panasonic CV51 interlaced dvd player connected via component cables to an iScan Ultra which is connected to the Hitachi TX200 via a DVI cable and DVI>HDMI adapter. On the HDMI input, and only on the HDMI input, I am experiencing vertical streaking in the chroma, particularly reds. A tell-tale scene is chapter #9 @ 57:00 of the Chicago dvd.

If this isn't relevant to this HDMI discussion, but you have any feedback about this, whether you connect devices similarly and have or do not have this issue, please go here:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3540

and help me out. Otherwise, back to your regularly scheduled HDMI discussion :)

[arslgu]

This is my story:
This w.e. I finally got my new home cinema stuff:
Pioneer 50XDE
Denon 3806 receiver
Arcam FMJ DV29
After connecting the DVD via HDMI to the amplifier and the ampliefier to the TV via HDMI I was ready to test it!
The DVD played for about 1 hour and then the player just fried. It litterary stopped working and wouldn't read any DVD nor CD.
The day after brought it back and they gave me a Denon to replace it while they ordered the Arcam back in. I reconnected it via HDMI, it played a movie, and I thought everything was fine. The day after, there was no sound coming out while the image was there for the same DVD. 10 mins later, image disappeared and DVD player "fried" again. No display showing on the player.
Now, it looks like other people have had similar problems. Any advice?
Have I connected it wrong?
Is the set up not correct?
Any help greatly appreciated...
Thanks
Guido

[Josuah]

Maybe it's the TV, and not the player? And did you try unplugging the player and TV from the wall?

[drd8669]

Forgive me for being redundant, but I'm also having a problem with my 8300HD box, which is attached to by Samsung plasma via an HDMI cable. I get the "you're hdtv does not support hdcp" prompt and I'm not even running through a receiver like a lot of others. Is there anything I can do or do I have to settle for component connections? I just don't understand why my plasma has an HDMI outlet, my 8300 box has an hdmi outlet, yet it doesn't work. Oh, and Brighthouse Networks is no help!!!!!

[arslgu]

yes I unplugged it all. The sky box works fine directly plugged to the tv but it's not HDMI. Next test when the new player comes in, is to plug it directly to the TV via HDMI and use coaxial for audio.

[ccng1]

I've problem with the HDMI connection between Philips LCD 37PF7320 and Denon AV1920. This is a weired problem that still no concrete answer even from the manufacturer.

When i tested the Denon DVD player in the shop and played it with the DVD that i brought along just to ensure it can read all regional code, which thru HDMI connection to the projector, everything worked out well.

When i brought it home and started to work with my LCD HDMI input, no Input Signal was shown but only has sound, no picture. Anyone has this problem? Need advice.

[2MuchTek]

I have just about had it with ALL of this digital stuff. I may never upgrade beyond coax and optical audio, analog 6 channel SACD & DVD-Audio and, component video. I recently came across this on audioholics explaining the HDMI upgrade path:
HDMI 1.1 was a relatively minor update. The primary feature was to add
some packets of audio-related content protection information. These
packets were required by DVD-Audio in order to permit DVD-Audio content
transmission on HDMI. HDMI 1.0 had the audio and video bandwidth and
capabilities and HDCP already had the content protection capabilities,
but there was some data that the DVD-Audio folks wanted to send to
HDMI/HDCP sinks to tell them not to send the DVD-Audio content elsewhere.

I Repeat:there was some data that the DVD-Audio folks wanted to send to
HDMI/HDCP sinks to tell them not to send the DVD-Audio content elsewhere...

That may explain why you cannot split off an optical or coax digi audio signal and run it thru your receiver while the HDMI is going to your display...It may get worse since:
HDMI 1.2 incorporates SACD,
If you don't use HDMI the HD and BluRay DVD Players will downgrade to just over 480P.
When everything goes HiDef will the current DVD and HDD based recorders be able to record since most of them only have composit and/or 'S' video inputs or will you need a box to downgrade the HD to standard TV even if you have a HD receiver, TV, whatever...
I bought into SADC & DVD Audio but the only music, in quantity, I can fing is from the 17th, 18th and, 19th centuries...


Just a few thoughts...

[scsiraid]

Forgive me for being redundant, but I'm also having a problem with my 8300HD box, which is attached to by Samsung plasma via an HDMI cable. I get the "you're hdtv does not support hdcp" prompt and I'm not even running through a receiver like a lot of others. Is there anything I can do or do I have to settle for component connections? I just don't understand why my plasma has an HDMI outlet, my 8300 box has an hdmi outlet, yet it doesn't work. Oh, and Brighthouse Networks is no help!!!!!

Same for me with the 8300HD and a Loewe Articos 55 DLP (DVI with HDCP). It used to work ok (6 months ago) but an 8300HD code update broke it. TWC tech admitted that the code update broke a lot of people. Using my Denon 3910 with the DLP always works fine no matter what power up order is used. This shouldnt be that hard!

[danp]

I must now admit that I made the mistake of falling for the HDMI "all digital" talk. I had heard of the problems some were having with DirecTV, DVD, etc. hookups using HDMI connections, but I figured that those problems were worked out when I bought my most of my system components, and I figured that keeping the signal all-digital would provide for the best picture. I don't have much interest in copying movies, so the HDCP didn't really bug me that much. So when I bought my Panasonic TH50PHD-7UY plasma, I ordered the HDMI plug-in input boards for my Denon DVD player and DirecTV HD Tivo. Immediately I noticed that if I don't turn on the sources before the Panasonic, there are "handshake" problems between the components; if I turn on the sources first, then the TV, no problems...until now. After 8 months of somewhat trouble-free operation, I am now suffering continual signal fall-outs; the Panasonic screen will suddenly go black and read "no signal", and the only step that will bring back the video is by turning the Panasonic off and back on. At the exact same time (or it seems), my Denon now also suffers the same problem, but on a much more frequent scale. At this point, I can only look at the HDMI as the cause of this problem. I will probably go with component connections now, unless someone has any suggestions that could help me with this problem.

Sorry if this is in the wrong section of the forum, but I thought that the thread title best fit my intended post.

I have a Panasonic 50PM50U and a Denon 2910 connected with an HDMI cable straight through (no switching devices). I get an occasional intermittent video dropout somewhere in the middle of a two-hour movie. The monitor goes blank for 5 seconds, or so, then recovers. It's random in nature. Can't reproduce it at will. The audio is fine, it's piped out the optical directly to the amp.

This happens with both a Denon 2910 and the 1920 (I got both of them). If I hook up the 2910 to the panny with a DVI conversion adapter, I get "noise" (static breakup). As an experiment, I'm running a cheap Tosh SD-K850SU, with HDMI/720p. So far, no problem with that, but the jury is still out.

Facts so far: The Denon 1920 and 2910, with HDMI (720p) both exhibit random signal dropouts. So far, the budget Tosh is running with no problem (but I need to run some more programming to be sure). So, I'm not ready to blame the monitor just yet. If the Tosh burps like the Denons, the panny repair guy will be paying me a visit (still on the one year warranty).

Is it the panny? Is it the Denon(s)? It sure as heck ain't the cable becuase I've been through three of them (ethereal, monster, etc.).

I got about a week left on my 30 days to return the 2910 (stuck with the less expensive 1920) for a full refund. I don't care about SACD -- just movies. I'm thinking about returning the 2910 and getting an Oppo. I feel like a lot of that $700 is for SACD in the 2910 that I don't need.

I really like the upconverted image -- just like at the movies, but that intermittent drop is annoying and distracting.

Update -- Got the same dropout from the Tosh SD-K850SU 1hr and 29min into "Narnia" last night. Looks like the Panasonic tech will be making a house call.

[bigmack]

I'm a relative newby to Home theater stuff. Just got into it this year. This is a great site, lots of good info.

I have a Samsung HL-P4674W DLP TV and the TWC SA 8300 DVR. All I have is the HDMI cable between the two. I also have a DVD/VCR combo (analog) player hooked to the TV using the composite cable. It's all been working fine since I brought it all home. I love it. Thinking of adding a Panasonic S77 next. Then the speakers.

Last night I put a coax between the DVR and the DVD/VCR so I could record a show from the DVR memory to a VCR tape for a friend. Still no problems. I guess I got lucky.

Also, my DVR records if the TV is on or off.

I'm also very happy with my Harmony remote control. Easy to program, and I only have one remote to keep up with.

js

Seems like I have a very similar setup but with different results... I have a harmony rc and I thought that was my problem...
I have a Samsung HL-R5078 and a TWC 8300 dvr hooked via HDMI. Each time I turned on the devices I would get an error "Your HDMI connot control your HDCP" reconnect via composite connection.
At first this error came up with only the harmony... It later came back with the original rc... I replaced the HDMI with composite and the problem went away. Any ideas???

[shokhead]

Stay with composite. They still havent worked out the bugs with HDMI and we keep buying stuff with it and keep having bugs. I cant afford to keep buying the next generation in hopes that its all good.

[jpikal]

I need help. I have a dish network 811 receiver with a DVI output and
a Samsung DLP HDTV with a HDMI input. If I connect the receiver
directly to the TV everything looks great but I have to connect my
Samsung DVD (which also has HMDI output) using only the component
connections. Thus I bought a JVC A/V receiver with HDMI switching so
that I could connect both with a digital connection. Unfortunately
when I do this the picture from the Dish network receiver is extremely
blue and this cannot be corrected by adjustment. A call to both JVS
and Dish network yielded only one comment and that was that you cannot
go from DVI to HDMI. Now I know that that is not completely true
because it works with the Dish receiver connected directly to the TV,
but could this be a compatability issue with some DVI and HDMI
connections? Is it possible that I have something setup wrong? Could
my cable be contributing to the problem (it was not a very expensive
one)? Please Help!

[vastpc]

My model Sony KDFE42A10 42 inch, purchased 2 weeks ago, connected to a New Philips 5960/37 DVD Player in HDMI connection Mode , and HDMI on Player set to AUTO, that outputs as its optimum 576P when playing DVD of Castaway, and DVD Player set to enable PCM Digital Sound out & Sony HDTV set for HDMI on input 6, and no HDCP violation message, TV has Volume control which works, and Video is very wide screen all of which implies the HDMI seems to work, BUT- with Philips DVD Player PCM out connected to (also purchased 2 weeks ago)Sony STR-DE698 7.1 Channel Surround Sound AM/FM Audio/Video Receiver, which locks up as long as HDMI connection to Sony HDTV is Maintained or if the Philips 5960 is ON. When the Philips 5960 is set to Standby, the operation of the Sony Receiver is fully functional, likewise, when the 5960 HDMI connection is removed from the Sony KDFE42 HDTV, the Receiver is unlocked and is fully functional.
I can get some sort of PCM from Receiver ( Receiver display shows 5.1 channel, not too sure that is actual sound as yet, but Remote is locked out, and only receiver panel controls function) and a HDMI Video signal setup and connectionto HDMI input 6 on Sony HDTV that gets a TV Message-Violation of HDCP, which and Player provides some sort of 16X9 Video ( Less Video displayed horizontally than Non-violation HDCP )to HDMI connection 6 , that the set says I am watching, and I know it is not the same signal that is on connection 5 which is component Video in 480P that has been adjusted to Zoom Full screen and a normal looking Tom Hanks). Also all the HDMI input video causes oblate imagery (Tom Hanks looks like a Neanderthal, saw similar on Last of Mohicans DVD) in any mode of HDMI, that I am unable to adjust away, like is possible on Component Video Zoomed Full screen connection 5, or DirectTV on 4. -Need to understand How this distortion may be fixed?
I also want to use my higher performance PCM connected Sony STR-DE698 7.1 Channel Surround Sound Systen, and External Speakers with the HDMI Video being functional in the SONY HDTV, and the PCM audio being fully operational in the Sony Receiver. Need to understand How may I make that Happen? I am not trying to copy the DVD in any fashion with the equipment connections, only use purchased DVD disk, and purchased Equipment to the best of their specified ability, which is the reason for their purchase. If I were to return the Philips Player, and purchase a Sony XXXXX DVD player, would that work? and eliminate my complaints, if so which?
So far my exposure indicates a lot of education is required by providers, and users of HDMI with HDCP limitations. Seems too big a project for industry and consumer, and should be staged with HDMI full functionality and interchangability by all providers, and then HDCP controls later.

[andyb]

New to HDMI but not to electronics and component systems.

Just bought a Samsung 50 plasma. The guy from Bestbuy suggested I get a HDMI dvd player from the same manufacturer to avoid HDMI problems. I got a Yamaha YSP unit and an HSU sub. All work well together with no glitches. However....Direct TV gets installed in a week. Now I'm crossing my fingers, feeling like I was very lucky to have it all work. Looks like I should keep a coax, optical and some component cables handy and also make sure the DTV installer puts it through all of it's paces.

Any suggestions to make sure it's all working well together?

[BJB]

I am new to this forum but have been around HT for quite a while. Lots of great info here!

This thread popped up in my search because of an issue I am having with HDMI and have been trying to solve. My TIVO HR10-250 is connected to my TV via HDMI. Your only choice on this STB is Dolby Digital on or off...and of course I want DD going to my receiver via optical. I do not NEED audio going to my TV.

However, it insists on sending audio over HDMI. Problem is, when the STB switches from standard 2 CH PCM to say DD (with DD "on") or perhaps no audio, the TV throws up a warning box for a while.

Is there any adapter or something that would strip out any audio that is going through the HDMI connection so the TV never sees any audio?
I tried an HDMI to DVI to HDMI converter string without luck.

Since this thread had such a knowledgeable discussion of HDMI issues, I was hoping some were still following. Any thoughts most appreciated.

BJB

[davidh]

So, sounds like I've hit the same problem as others trying to get a Time Warner HD cable box (scientific atlanta) to connect via the HDMI to a Denon receiver. Has anyone actually solved this or should I give up and just use the component and coax cables?

[Admin]

There appears to have been several problems with HDMI and cable-satellite boxes. Supposedly, you are supposed to call them with the issue and they will send you the correct software, but you have to call them to get it, because if they just automatically download it in the middle of the night to everyone, including those who don't use HDMI, some boxes that work fine might stop working. So, they want you to actually request it.

JEJ

[vttom]

FWIW - I have a DishNetwork (Echostar) ViP622 receiver, and I take the HDMI output through a Monoprice 2:1 HDMI equalizing switcher into my InFocus 4805's DVI port (there's a HDMI->DVI adapter in there somewhere). Both claim to use HDCP. I haven't had any problems with either unit, even when rapidly switching over to my non-HDCP Oppo DVD player and back. Also, I'm using the digital audio from my 622 into my Pioneer receiver over a TosLink cable. No sign of the "TosLink is disabled if I use the HDMI port" problem that some people seem to be having with certain DBS/CATV STBs.

Kudos to EchoStar for getting this one right.

Edit: For those curious about the details of the interconnect, it goes like this:

Video:
ViP622 HDMI output into HDMI input #1 on the Monoprice HDMI switch over a 3ft. M/M-HDMI cable (also Monoprice).
Oppo DVI output into HDMI input #2 on the Monoprice HDMI switch over a 3ft. M-DVI/M-HDMI cable (also Monoprice).
HDMI output of the HDMI switch into a (I forget the brand - I bought it at Radio shack for $30) HDMI->DVI adapter, into a 25ft. DVI cable, into a 1ft. DVI->M1A adapter, and finally into the M1A port on the 4805.

[BTW, I also take the S-Video and L/R audio out of the ViP622 into a second TV located in an adjacent room.]

Audio:
TosLink out of the ViP622 into the TV/DBS input on the Pioneer receiver.
Digital coax out of the Oppo into the DVD input on the Pioneer receiver.

[Admin]

Here is an interesting November, 2006, PowerPoint presentation from HDMI Licensing, LLC, about the capabilities of HDMI version 1.3. It looks like we are headed into video resolutions beyond 1080p.

http://www.hdmi.org/download/press_kit/2006_10_27HDMI1%203WorldSneakPreviewFINAL.ppt#544, 1,HDMI 1.3 Preview the Future of HD

JEJ

[Admin]

Over the past year, I have had an HDMI jack in three different components become defective. That includes a projector, a video processor, and a video switcher. It is becoming increasingly obvious that we have a big, big problem with the engineering on this connector design. Once the components are repaired, I plan to put a short Male/Female HDMI cable on each one, and tape the other end to the equipment rack, then plug the other products into those taped connectors. That way, only the short cable HDMI jack gets stressed, not the HDMI jacks on the components. What have been our readers' experiences?

JJ

[vttom]

Did your HDMI ports "go bad" as a result of a lot of plugging and unplugging, or were they mostly static connections? Just wondering, because the HDMI gear that I have has so far been fine, but I've plugged/unplugged the cables maybe 3 times since I got the stuff (about 7 months ago).

[oildalemonkey]

Over the past year, I have had an HDMI jack in three different components become defective. That includes a projector, a video processor, and a video switcher. It is becoming increasingly obvious that we have a big, big problem with the engineering on this connector design. Once the components are repaired, I plan to put a short Male/Female HDMI cable on each one, and tape the other end to the equipment rack, then plug the other products into those taped connectors. That way, only the short cable HDMI jack gets stressed, not the HDMI jacks on the components. What have been our readers' experiences?

JJI have not had any problems with HDMI jacks so far, but that's a good idea about using short patch cables.

HDMI 1.3 specifies a smaller connector design that should hopefully be more rugged.

[Admin]

No, not a lot of unplugging. In fact, one of the switchers HDMI jacks became defective on the first day. The jacks are just mechanically weak. There are a lot of conductors that have to make contact inside, and the plug just does not fit tightly enough. Too much play horizontally and vertically I guess. Thick HDMI cables also put a lot of bend stress at the junction.

JJ