Comments on: HD Voodoo? http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blog/2009/04/07/hd-voodoo/ Secrets of Home Theater and Hi Fi Sun, 22 Nov 2009 01:29:11 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Kieran http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blog/2009/04/07/hd-voodoo/#comment-1425 Kieran Tue, 14 Apr 2009 15:37:28 +0000 http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blog/?p=2776#comment-1425 I'd like to direct everyone's attention to the recent news that Time Warner has been testing an ISP pricing model that caps downloads per month, and charges overage fees if you download more than your allotment in any month. This is similar to many cell phone plans. The implication of course is that companies like Vudu and Netflix will suffer (Netflix less so since they are still primarily a disc-rental business) and my prediction that downloading of hometheater media is the near future may not come to pass... not as soon as I thought anyway. This is of course assuming TW's test markets prove successful for them, they go national with it, and other ISP's follow suit. I certainly hope this does not happen! Here's a link to one article on the topic: http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-10218431-94.html Greg, Good points. While I agree that most people wouldn't tell the difference (or care even if they could) between Vudu's HDX and a real blu-ray unless it was side-by-side, I think this website's audience for the most part could tell, and does care. Personally, I'm usually the skeptic when it comes to detecting minor improvements in media quality. I'm a bang-for-buck kind of guy, and my "point of deminishing returns" is pretty low usually. However, super-high bitrate 1080p blu-ray discs make up one area of this hobby that has made me take notice. I am astounded at how much BETTER a *good* (i.e. high bit-rate) blu-ray disc looks compared to the best HD material that was available before blu-rays came out (that being off-the-air HDTV programming). This is without a/b comparison... Also, my point in this is post was not that the "good enough" isn't "good enough". For most people it is. Heck, given the convenience it's good enough for me too, most of the time. My point is that what is available to be streamed online is not true 1080pHD material, if your benchmark for such a thing is a high-quality blu-ray disc. The label "1080p HD" is being thrown about by marketing folks these days, and people need to know what they're buying, and what they should expect. If it's streaming, it's most likely not as good as what you'll see off of a blu-ray disc. I’d like to direct everyone’s attention to the recent news that Time Warner has been testing an ISP pricing model that caps downloads per month, and charges overage fees if you download more than your allotment in any month. This is similar to many cell phone plans. The implication of course is that companies like Vudu and Netflix will suffer (Netflix less so since they are still primarily a disc-rental business) and my prediction that downloading of hometheater media is the near future may not come to pass… not as soon as I thought anyway. This is of course assuming TW’s test markets prove successful for them, they go national with it, and other ISP’s follow suit. I certainly hope this does not happen! Here’s a link to one article on the topic:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-10218431-94.html

Greg,

Good points. While I agree that most people wouldn’t tell the difference (or care even if they could) between Vudu’s HDX and a real blu-ray unless it was side-by-side, I think this website’s audience for the most part could tell, and does care. Personally, I’m usually the skeptic when it comes to detecting minor improvements in media quality. I’m a bang-for-buck kind of guy, and my “point of deminishing returns” is pretty low usually. However, super-high bitrate 1080p blu-ray discs make up one area of this hobby that has made me take notice. I am astounded at how much BETTER a *good* (i.e. high bit-rate) blu-ray disc looks compared to the best HD material that was available before blu-rays came out (that being off-the-air HDTV programming). This is without a/b comparison…

Also, my point in this is post was not that the “good enough” isn’t “good enough”. For most people it is. Heck, given the convenience it’s good enough for me too, most of the time. My point is that what is available to be streamed online is not true 1080pHD material, if your benchmark for such a thing is a high-quality blu-ray disc. The label “1080p HD” is being thrown about by marketing folks these days, and people need to know what they’re buying, and what they should expect. If it’s streaming, it’s most likely not as good as what you’ll see off of a blu-ray disc.

]]> By: Greg Z http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blog/2009/04/07/hd-voodoo/#comment-1422 Greg Z Mon, 13 Apr 2009 17:47:52 +0000 http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blog/?p=2776#comment-1422 Not to make hash of a dead horse. (yuck) But if a good chunk / majority of people still can't tell HD from SD without a A/B or side by side comparison what are the odds they will be able to tell 1080 with a good bit rate from bad? Jim: I bet if you put the same title blu-ray in and did a simultaneous comparison with Vudu on a calibrated display you would notice a difference. But it would be small. And those that are not attuned to their systems would not even notice. We've got "good enough" out there and that's what will sell for the majority. Since it sells economics drives everyone to keep putting out lower quality. We have to rely on ourselves to keep pushing manufactures from putting out cr*p with new labels. I recall being underwhelmed at the first HD-DVD titles. They looked no better that a high quality DVD upconvert on my system - and that's with an A/B comparison! "This is the new high res????" I thought. Try it yourself. Get your fav Blu ray, and go download a 8Gb HD torrent of the same (you are allowed to own a backup copy so there's no legal issues here). Have someone else hit play and then try and guess which one you are watching. 50/50 says you get it wrong. And If you ask the Significant other in your life to watch the HD torrent rip and ask for their opinion on the PQ.... You'll likely get a sigh and a long suffering look with a comment like "it looks fine, stop fiddling and watch the movie" Not to make hash of a dead horse. (yuck) But if a good chunk / majority of people still can’t tell HD from SD without a A/B or side by side comparison what are the odds they will be able to tell 1080 with a good bit rate from bad?

Jim: I bet if you put the same title blu-ray in and did a simultaneous comparison with Vudu on a calibrated display you would notice a difference. But it would be small. And those that are not attuned to their systems would not even notice.

We’ve got “good enough” out there and that’s what will sell for the majority. Since it sells economics drives everyone to keep putting out lower quality. We have to rely on ourselves to keep pushing manufactures from putting out cr*p with new labels. I recall being underwhelmed at the first HD-DVD titles. They looked no better that a high quality DVD upconvert on my system - and that’s with an A/B comparison! “This is the new high res????” I thought.

Try it yourself. Get your fav Blu ray, and go download a 8Gb HD torrent of the same (you are allowed to own a backup copy so there’s no legal issues here). Have someone else hit play and then try and guess which one you are watching. 50/50 says you get it wrong.

And If you ask the Significant other in your life to watch the HD torrent rip and ask for their opinion on the PQ…. You’ll likely get a sigh and a long suffering look with a comment like “it looks fine, stop fiddling and watch the movie”

]]> By: Jim M http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blog/2009/04/07/hd-voodoo/#comment-1401 Jim M Thu, 09 Apr 2009 16:33:46 +0000 http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blog/?p=2776#comment-1401 Since the HD version costs the same as the HDX, most of my veiwing has been with HDX. However, the HD versions of the above mentioned "Dr. Zhivago" and another (perhaps not quite so classic) movie "The Fearless Vampire Killers" were both markedly better in the PQ than the SD DVD versions. Not to usurp authority from a Vudu representative, but the reason we by a HDTV is for the HD picture. Vudu offers a lot of HD/HDX content to fill in our lust for movies in a HD format. True, you don't get the "extras" of a purchased disc-in-a-box, but for most of the people I know, we just want to see the movie on our HDTV and move on to the next one. I would recommend that people go to the Vudu homepage and view the HDX demo as they do a side by side comparison of upconverted SD and HDX....hey, if a picture is worth a thousand words, a HDX picture must be worth...well, even more than a thousand! Remember, streaming HD is still in its infancy. As good as it is now, it'll be better in a year! You heard from me here first, folks... Since the HD version costs the same as the HDX, most of my veiwing has been with HDX. However, the HD versions of the above mentioned “Dr. Zhivago” and another (perhaps not quite so classic) movie “The Fearless Vampire Killers” were both markedly better in the PQ than the SD DVD versions. Not to usurp authority from a Vudu representative, but the reason we by a HDTV is for the HD picture. Vudu offers a lot of HD/HDX content to fill in our lust for movies in a HD format. True, you don’t get the “extras” of a purchased disc-in-a-box, but for most of the people I know, we just want to see the movie on our HDTV and move on to the next one. I would recommend that people go to the Vudu homepage and view the HDX demo as they do a side by side comparison of upconverted SD and HDX….hey, if a picture is worth a thousand words, a HDX picture must be worth…well, even more than a thousand! Remember, streaming HD is still in its infancy. As good as it is now, it’ll be better in a year! You heard from me here first, folks…

]]> By: Kieran Coghlan http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blog/2009/04/07/hd-voodoo/#comment-1400 Kieran Coghlan Thu, 09 Apr 2009 06:44:27 +0000 http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blog/?p=2776#comment-1400 Just a correction... I wrote: "The same overall picture quality could most likely be had with lower resolution, the same or higher bitrate, and smaller overall file size." That statement is incorrect. Regardless of resolution, for a given video (i.e. a given playing time) bitrate determines filesize. Overall bitrate in KB/sec * video duration in seconds = file size in KB (give or take some for overhead). My point in the above statement was that if a low bitrate is causing video artifacts like macroblocking, then the effective *resolution* is reduced. If that's the case, then the file should be re-encoded with a lower resolution and the same (or even LOWER) bitrate. This would result in a greater bits/pixel ratio, which would improve overall picture quality, and reduce artifacts. Just a correction… I wrote:
“The same overall picture quality could most likely be had with lower resolution, the same or higher bitrate, and smaller overall file size.”

That statement is incorrect. Regardless of resolution, for a given video (i.e. a given playing time) bitrate determines filesize. Overall bitrate in KB/sec * video duration in seconds = file size in KB (give or take some for overhead).

My point in the above statement was that if a low bitrate is causing video artifacts like macroblocking, then the effective *resolution* is reduced. If that’s the case, then the file should be re-encoded with a lower resolution and the same (or even LOWER) bitrate. This would result in a greater bits/pixel ratio, which would improve overall picture quality, and reduce artifacts.

]]> By: Kieran Coghlan http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blog/2009/04/07/hd-voodoo/#comment-1399 Kieran Coghlan Thu, 09 Apr 2009 04:33:57 +0000 http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blog/?p=2776#comment-1399 Thanks for the comments, guys. Jim M: I've seen the HDX demoed in store, but didn't get a chance to see Vudu's "standard" HD faire (i.e. those videos labeled as 1080p HD, but not "HDX". Can you comment on the difference you see, if any? Thanks. Thanks for the comments, guys.
Jim M: I’ve seen the HDX demoed in store, but didn’t get a chance to see Vudu’s “standard” HD faire (i.e. those videos labeled as 1080p HD, but not “HDX”. Can you comment on the difference you see, if any?
Thanks.

]]> By: Jim M http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blog/2009/04/07/hd-voodoo/#comment-1398 Jim M Wed, 08 Apr 2009 19:47:11 +0000 http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blog/?p=2776#comment-1398 HDX touts 1080p/24...while Apple is 720p. HDX has the following features: • Psychovisual Processing Improves picture quality by enhancing details in dark areas of the picture, virtually removing the dark area artifacts typical of Internet movies. • Film Grain Preservation Improves the cinematic experience by ensuring that the displayed picture remains true to the fine optical texture of the original film. • Statistical Variable Bitrate Ensures optimal video quality throughout the film by allocating a higher encoding budget to high detail and high motion segments of the film, while preserving the ability to stream it over the Internet. • Color Gradient Processing A unique technology used to tune the picture for optimal display on modern LCD and Plasma televisions. ...all I know is it looks great, is easy to use and has a huge HD library of films (both new and older classics). With the imminent demise of Blockbuster, the internet just became the new big kid on the block. Viva la downloads! HDX touts 1080p/24…while Apple is 720p. HDX has the following features:

• Psychovisual Processing
Improves picture quality by enhancing details in dark areas of the picture, virtually removing the dark area artifacts typical of Internet movies.

• Film Grain Preservation
Improves the cinematic experience by ensuring that the displayed picture remains true to the fine optical texture of the original film.

• Statistical Variable Bitrate
Ensures optimal video quality throughout the film by allocating a higher encoding budget to high detail and high motion segments of the film, while preserving the ability to stream it over the Internet.

• Color Gradient Processing
A unique technology used to tune the picture for optimal display on modern LCD and Plasma televisions.

…all I know is it looks great, is easy to use and has a huge HD library of films (both new and older classics). With the imminent demise of Blockbuster, the internet just became the new big kid on the block. Viva la downloads!

]]> By: Ben http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blog/2009/04/07/hd-voodoo/#comment-1397 Ben Wed, 08 Apr 2009 16:54:42 +0000 http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blog/?p=2776#comment-1397 From a marketing perspective I completely understand using the terms "1080p" and "HD" on high quality video. If VUDU didn't start touting 1080p, Apple would have and so forth. Even Netflix has gotten into the game of HD now and I believe there streamed movies are only 1 to 2 Mbps. Because there is no standard definition of what 1080p is, like you said, it can technically be anything. I've compared the VUDU's HD to that of Apple and Netflix and I feel that VUDU is indeed the highest quality. Is it true HD? Depends who you ask, but it is the best from a streamed source currently. I think I am OK with that. From a marketing perspective I completely understand using the terms “1080p” and “HD” on high quality video. If VUDU didn’t start touting 1080p, Apple would have and so forth. Even Netflix has gotten into the game of HD now and I believe there streamed movies are only 1 to 2 Mbps.

Because there is no standard definition of what 1080p is, like you said, it can technically be anything. I’ve compared the VUDU’s HD to that of Apple and Netflix and I feel that VUDU is indeed the highest quality. Is it true HD? Depends who you ask, but it is the best from a streamed source currently. I think I am OK with that.

]]> By: Jim M http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blog/2009/04/07/hd-voodoo/#comment-1396 Jim M Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:01:18 +0000 http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blog/?p=2776#comment-1396 As an actual owner of a Vudubx100, I can say that the difference between an HDX and HD-DVD are indistinguishable to me. The sound is in DD+, which is very good. I have not needed to wait more than 2 hours for a movie in HDX to be ready. The wife and I watched Dr. Zhivago in HD the other night and we were impressed with the picture quality on my 50' DLP. In HDX, I watched Ironman and the detail (even film grain) was astounding! Add to it the other features that Vudu offers (Vudu labs with free Picasa, Flicker, Pandora, games, TV shows, etc) and I am a "happy camper". Now, is it exactly like BD? No. But it is so good, that I am no longer interested in going with BD. With Vudu vault, I can store my purchases for later, so no racks full of discs that I buy, watch once and then watch them gather dust...and lament after a few years about all the $$$ sitting on that rack. Part of the appeal is the instant gratification of watching a HD movie when I want...and Vudu has HD'd over 1400 movies so far...many in HDX. HD streaming is the future...and the future is now! As an actual owner of a Vudubx100, I can say that the difference between an HDX and HD-DVD are indistinguishable to me. The sound is in DD+, which is very good. I have not needed to wait more than 2 hours for a movie in HDX to be ready. The wife and I watched Dr. Zhivago in HD the other night and we were impressed with the picture quality on my 50′ DLP. In HDX, I watched Ironman and the detail (even film grain) was astounding! Add to it the other features that Vudu offers (Vudu labs with free Picasa, Flicker, Pandora, games, TV shows, etc) and I am a “happy camper”. Now, is it exactly like BD? No. But it is so good, that I am no longer interested in going with BD. With Vudu vault, I can store my purchases for later, so no racks full of discs that I buy, watch once and then watch them gather dust…and lament after a few years about all the $$$ sitting on that rack. Part of the appeal is the instant gratification of watching a HD movie when I want…and Vudu has HD’d over 1400 movies so far…many in HDX. HD streaming is the future…and the future is now!

]]> By: Kieran Coghlan http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blog/2009/04/07/hd-voodoo/#comment-1387 Kieran Coghlan Wed, 08 Apr 2009 02:38:14 +0000 http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blog/?p=2776#comment-1387 Not to be the first comment on my own post, but this was a timely piece of news: http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSTRE53568L20090406 Blockbuster has expressed concerns about its own viability to the SEC... Not to be the first comment on my own post, but this was a timely piece of news:
http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSTRE53568L20090406
Blockbuster has expressed concerns about its own viability to the SEC…

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